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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Official Shadows of Brimstone FAQ question thread. rss

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Neil Edmonds
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Otherworld Threats Deck overriding enemy abilities ADDED

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Do you draw from the Low Threat Mine deck when drawing for Sinister Experiments, rather than drawing from the deck in whatever Other World you might be in

This is the Flesh Stalker expansion right? The rules are at odds with each other, but following them as written would make the world the Flesh Stalker is encountered in override what's written on the enemy card:

The core rulebook on page 21, specifically indicates players should follow the instructions on the enemy card or event:

"When a Fight begins,the first thing that the players need to do is find out what Enemies are actually attacking them. Usually, this means drawing a Threat card (though sometimes the Attack will call for a specific Type of Enemy as listed on the card or Event that caused the Attack in the first place)."

Then page 31 contradicts this ruling by stating:

"Each Other World has unique card decks for Map Cards, Encounters, Artifacts, and Other World Threats. While in that Other World, these card decks should be used in place of the normal Mine versions of these decks. When a card would be drawn from one of these decks, simply use the Other World version of that deck instead. This is a relatively obvious switch for each of these decks, with the exception of the Other World Threats.

Other World Threat cards represent Enemies that are unique to the alien world you are in (though the Wandering Enemy card represents other creatures finding their way through a portal into that world). Unlike the normal Threat Decks that are split into Low, Med, and High Threats, there is only one Other World Threat Deck and each card in it lists the result for Low (Green), Med (Yellow), and High (Red) Threats. Normal Epic Threats are used for Other Worlds as well, but any additional Threat cards they have you draw should be from the Other World Threat cards."
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Neil Edmonds
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When you reach the level where you can hire Allies who have double Health and Sanity, are those also the Allies you receive through Gear cards? They would be pretty useless otherwise . . .

Lots of things scale with the posse level in the game. I don't see why the allies encountered wouldn't stay leveled up too. Right now, I'll pass on asking this question in the FAQ.

Quote:
A small number of scenarios have monsters enter the map through entry points. Void Hounds and Sand Crabs, however, appear adjacent to Heroes. In these scenarios, do these monsters instead enter the map through the entry points (this is especially important for Cynder's "Holding the Bridge" mission)?

Void Hounds move pretty fast. I'd do what the Mission says and assign them to the entry points. It would be consistent with some of Jason Hills other rulings where mission requirements override character abilities (no dynamite) or card abilities (no skipping the end mission Epic Thread).

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2. If a Hell Cannon shows up in the "Town Overrun" Town Mission, will the wooden walls of the buildings stop a cannon ball's Travel Path, or will it keep going right through the wooden wall?

4. Monsters can pass through Lava tiles when moving with no penalty, but if shoved into the tile they can take damage. Do they also take damage if a tile appears under them, such as through Beli'al's power?

6. If a Hero is Entangled by a Sand Kraken, and the Beast then changes targets and moves across the entire tile to target a different Hero, is the first Hero still entangled?

I'll need Jee to weigh on these, since I don't have the rules handy at the moment. I have vague recollections of some immunities for Belial's lava space power, but I don't recall if it's only for Belial himself. I also know some monsters are immune to lava, and that's about it.
 
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Njorl
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Generally I play the way I like and whatever makes most sense, but I ran into this last night

Playing Sealing the Void Gate, the final room was the map tile with Steam clouds(boiler room I think). So I closed off the doors, placed the enemies, and added the gate, but should I have played the map tile encounter of steam clouds? The rules explicitly state for the mission that you ignore any encounters or other affects from the exploration token, but the advanced rules for Advanced Encounters state that these encounters cannot be negated in any way. Plus this is not an encounter from a exploration token, but that I would chalk up to a technicality if not for the the advanced encounter rule.
To sum up, if a mission states to ignore encounters or attacks from an exploration token, do you also ignore Advanced Encounters? Similarly, should you add the Growing Dread from that specific encounter token in the same situation?
 
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George
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Inspector Jee wrote:
I just had a minor revelation. The wording on the FAQ regarding +Damage specifically excludes Hits that come from things other than a To-Hit roll. For instance, we were talking about Righteous Fury's interaction with Cleansing Fire. Upon further consideration, I'm changing my opinion on this - Cleansing Fire deals Hits, but those Hits don't come from To-Hit rolls, so they can't benefit from +Damage effects at all (include Righteous Fury).
!!!! Dude! This is what I was talking about back on page 1 & 2!

It’s why I was trying to define what counted as a “Hit”:
soosy wrote:
Does “all of that Hero’s Hits do +1 Damage each” on Righteous Fury include Hits not caused by Attacks (i.e. Sermons)?

But if we agree it only works when you assign a To Hit roll (you were saying otherwise) then that pretty much answers the question since assigning a To-Hit roll only comes from attacks.

Inspector Jee wrote:
But this brings up another important interaction that needs further FAQing. The FAQ current says this:

Damage modifiers may only be applied on Damage to a model from a successful To Hit roll assigned to that model.

I’m not sure if they had this rule in mind from the beginning, but I think it brilliantly solves many of the problem areas. By requiring a To Hit roll to a model they elegantly rule out:
- automatic hits / damage
- splash and secondary damage
- area of effect damage

I think it's helpful to think of it in this way, so if you see secondary damage you won't expect it to get +Damage.

Inspector Jee wrote:
There are exceptions for things that specifically mention Attacks, as well as for Splash Damage. But there are a lot of extra-Hit-generating secondary effects in the game that happen as a result of assigning a To-Hit roll, but that don't fall under the category of Splash Damage. Are these affected by +Damage? For example, the Plasma Arc (srsly this thing needs a re-work for all the trouble it's caused). It says that "each Hit counts as 2 Hits to the Target and 1 Hit to all Enemies Adjacent to the Target". How does this interact with +Damage? Is the damage from ALL of these Hits considered to be coming "from a successful To-Hit Roll assigned to that model?" Cause you don't get to assign the Hits that the actual damage comes from, so how ... does work?

Perhaps Plasma Arc will get clarified to be splash. But if not:
Main target gets assigned a To-Hit roll so it gets +damage.
Secondary targets don’t get +damage.
Both get “All of your Attacks” +damage (unless it gets clarified as Splash).

The “Secondary Hits” question seems pretty clear per the existing FAQ but I’m not opposed to getting confirmation! More confirmation good as the FAQ really shook up the existing thought on +damage!

Inspector Jee wrote:
Another example is the Cowboy's Trick Shooting Staring Upgrade. It too generates secondary Hits. How does this interact with a) +dmg and b) the freakin' Plasma Arc.

As I noted earlier, this should most likely get reworded for the same reasons Through Shot did.
 
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George
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In the spirit of confirming things (since the FAQ rulings on +damage didn’t give a lot of examples), I’d love to ask about the different ways of damage-inflicting a hero can do that isn’t technically an Attack:

For “All of your Attacks” +Damage, what counts as an “attack”. There are several items and abilities that aren’t specifically labeled attacks:

Does damage a hero inflicts from items such as Book of the Mad King and Ash of Shadows benefit from “All of your Attacks” +damage?

Do class abilities like Spinning Kick (Saloon Girl), Swinging Rifle (Rancher), End of the Line (Marshal), Shadow Strike (Scout), Feared by Evil (Drifter) and Parry (Saloon girl) benefit from “All of your Attacks” +damage?

Do special class mechanics like Preacher Sermons, Samurai Battle Tactics and Shaman Spells benefit from “All of your Attacks” +damage? What about the Shaman’s “Lightning Field” where you roll for every adjacent enemy… is that a To-Hit roll?


I could believe those all don't count as attacks, but aside from Splash damage these are the only exceptions I could find (through wave 1.5) to "All of your Attacks" +damage. The class abilities seem most questionable to me. Reference below for those interested. Notice Swinging Rifle uses "Combat Hit" which may or may not indicate something special (that it's an attack?):

Quote:
Book of the Mad King - Once per Fight, you may read from the book. Choose an Enemy on your Map Tile to take D6 Wounds with no Defense. You then take either D6 Corruption Hits or 2D6 Horror Hits (you choose).

Ring of Oro’sia [Cynder] - +1 Spirit, Once per Adventure, do 2 Wounds, ignoring Defense to every model Adjacent to you.

Ash of Shadows - Discard to smash Ash of Shadows on the ground. Every Hero on you Map Tile immediately takes 2 Corruption Hits (including you). Every Enemy on your Map Tile (except Undead) immediately takes 2 Wounds, ignoring Defense.

Book of the Lost - Once per Adventure, you may read from the book. Take up to 5 Corruption Points, ignoring Willpower, to do that same number of Damage to every adjacent model, ignoring Defense.

Saloon Girl - Spinning Kick - Use 1 Grit to do 2 Wounds to an adjacent Enemy ignoring Defense. You may move them up to 2 spaces (unless Large). +1 Strength

Rancher - Swinging Rifle - Use 1 Grit during your Activation to do 1 automatic Combat Hit to every adjacent Enemy. This does not count as your Attack. Use only while equipped with a [two hand] Gun.

U.S. Marshal - End of the Line - Once per turn, use 3 Grit to do one automatic Hit to every Enemy on your Map Tile. These Hits use the D8 for Damage.

Indian Scout - Vengeful Spirits - Once per Fight, use 2 Grit to do one automatic Hit to every Enemy on your Map Tile. Heal 1 Sanity Damage for each Hit done.

Drifter - Spinning Guns - Use 2 Grit to immediately do D6 Wounds to every adjacent Enemy, ignoring Defense.

Indian Scout - Shadow Strike - Once per Adventure, transfer 2D6 Wounds from yourself to an adjacent Enemy, ignoring Defense.

Drifter - Feared by Evil - At the start of each turn during a Fight, choose an Enemy on your Map Tile. It immediately taken D3 Wounds.

Saloon Girl - Parry - Any time an adjacent Enemy rolls a 1 to Hit you, do 1 Wound to it, ignoring Defense.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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The Advanced Encounter question is interesting. It's important not to overstate what's actually in the rules. It's not "can't be negated in any way", it's "Advanced Encounters like this cannot be canceled or re-drawn." This wouldn't override Mission requirements that instruct players to ignore Encounters, Attacks, etc. on the final mission space. The instructions also say the Advanced Encounter is added to the Exploration of the room, and its in addition to any Encounters or Attacks listed on the Exploration token. So mission requirements referencing Exploration also wouldn't be overridden.

I'd lean toward not applying the Advanced Encounter myself; however, Flying Frog has had a history of offering variants for Final Encounters that are more challenging (for example, the special chart for Villain Showdowns in A Touch of Evil), so if someone wants to keep the Advanced Encounter for thematic reasons, that'd be fine too.
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Neil Edmonds
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But if we agree it only works when you assign a To Hit roll (you were saying otherwise) then that pretty much answers the question since assigning a To-Hit roll only comes from attacks.

Or you could just read my interpretation of sermons and solve the problem that way too. The preacher isn't making an attack, the Christian God is, and God doesn't get the preacher's to-hit bonuses any more than the rest of the posse would.

Quote:
o class abilities like Spinning Kick (Saloon Girl), Swinging Rifle (Rancher), End of the Line (Marshal), Shadow Strike (Scout), Feared by Evil (Drifter) and Parry (Saloon girl) benefit from “All of your Attacks” +damage?

These would be eligible for effects that apply to "all your attacks" based on my discussion with Jason Hill at the Wave 2 pickup event. He seemed very interested in drawing a distinction between effects that mention a "to-hit" roll to apply, effects that don't mention "to-hit" rolls (like all your attacks effects), and splash damage which is a special category. Beyond that, I don't know what Jason Hill meant because he didn't specify.

I've come up with the following question, which hopefully summarizes the issue. Is this a fair representation? I listed Soosy's specific examples below:

Is there a difference between combat effects that specify wounds vs. those that specify hits (automatic or otherwise)? There's also confusion about how this applies to effects that impact "all your attacks."

I also removed this question from the abilities section because it's redundant: Is the damage to additional models from the Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunsliger's Through Shot, and the Cowboy's Trick Shooting splash damage or a regular attack for purposes of applying damage modifiers?

 
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Jee Fu
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soosy wrote:

!!!! Dude! This is what I was talking about back on page 1 & 2!
Quite right. I am adopting your implied ruling, at least with regard to Sermons.

sooty wrote:
But if we agree it only works when you assign a To Hit roll (you were saying otherwise) then that pretty much answers the question since assigning a To-Hit roll only comes from attacks.

I’m not sure if they had this rule in mind from the beginning, but I think it brilliantly solves many of the problem areas. By requiring a To Hit roll to a model they elegantly rule out:
- automatic hits / damage
- splash and secondary damage
- area of effect damage

I think it's helpful to think of it in this way, so if you see secondary damage you won't expect it to get +Damage.
This is the most literal reading of the Rules at this point. But it's problematic for reasons I will get into shortly.

sooty wrote:

Perhaps Plasma Arc will get clarified to be splash. But if not:
Main target gets assigned a To-Hit roll so it gets +damage.
The Hit that the Hero gets to assign to the Target doesn't do any damage to the Target; all it does is auto-generate secondary Hits that the Hero does NOT get to assign. These Hits are auto-assigned to the Target + adjacent Enemies, AND their damage does NOT result directly from To-Hit Rolls (they instead result from a Hit that results from a To-Hit roll).

sooty wrote:

Secondary targets don’t get +damage.
Both get “All of your Attacks” +damage (unless it gets clarified as Splash).

This I also agree with.

sooty wrote:

Inspector Jee wrote:
Another example is the Cowboy's Trick Shooting Staring Upgrade. It too generates secondary Hits. How does this interact with a) +dmg and b) the freakin' Plasma Arc.

As I noted earlier, this should most likely get reworded for the same reasons Through Shot did.
Yes, perhaps. Definetly needs an FAQing in some sense.

So, as I said before the literal interpretation is problematic and this a good example of why. The FAQ says that the extra Shots from Trick Shooting don't get the bonus from extra +dmg, but there are two things here that might indicate otherwise, and would thus invalidate the literal interpretation:

1) Trick Shooting says that the extra Hits generated are from "the same Gun"; Ammo affects Gun Hits - that's literally all it does, so it seems reeeeeally wonky pedantic to claim that these extra Hits don't benefit simply because they didn't result directly from a To-Hit roll. But if you make the claim that they could benefit as such, then you must also let the Plasma Arc use +dmg on ALL its secondary Hits as well.

2) We have no ruling about how +Dmg works if its built-in to the Gun. If we assume it works the same as externally gained +dmg, then the literal interpretation means that Trick Shooting Gun Hits don't gain any +dmg innate to the Gun involved. This is madness, because the Upgrade wouldn't mention that the Hits come from the same Gun if we were meant to ignore a good percentage of all Guns' innate abilities.

Through-Shot for the Rancher also falls into this category because it also says "... with the same Gun ... " but clearly doesn't trigger of an assigned Hit (it triggers from a kill).

Fixing it would require making the FAQ ruling something like:

Damage modifiers may only be applied on Damage to a model from a Hit assigned to that model.

This of course would re-include Sermon Hits, but a) that's inline with the RAW before the FAQ and b) it solves all the problems at once without needing exceptions for 2-3 kinds of other interactions.

Autoduelist wrote:

Lots of things scale with the posse level in the game. I don't see why the allies encountered wouldn't stay leveled up too. Right now, I'll pass on asking this question in the FAQ.
The Allies Rules say you have to specify when you're buying them that you wish to buy a Veteran Version, but paying twice the price for them. There is no way to make such a decision when you find them during an Adventure, so yes this is a good question to ask.

Autoduelist wrote:
Quote:
2. If a Hell Cannon shows up in the "Town Overrun" Town Mission, will the wooden walls of the buildings stop a cannon ball's Travel Path, or will it keep going right through the wooden wall?

4. Monsters can pass through Lava tiles when moving with no penalty, but if shoved into the tile they can take damage. Do they also take damage if a tile appears under them, such as through Beli'al's power?

6. If a Hero is Entangled by a Sand Kraken, and the Beast then changes targets and moves across the entire tile to target a different Hero, is the first Hero still entangled?

I'll need Jee to weigh on these, since I don't have the rules handy at the moment. I have vague recollections of some immunities for Belial's lava space power, but I don't recall if it's only for Belial himself. I also know some monsters are immune to lava, and that's about it.

I will be away from my collection until Monday morning, so I wont be able to weigh in until then. I would say that Lava Tiles that appear underneath Enemies would simply default to whatever the effect that placed them says to do if the Tile appears under a Model. If it doesn't use language that is Enemy-inclusive, then I would play as written: Enemies aren't affected negatively by Lava unless they get knocked in.

- Jee
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Ally level question ADDED (my prediction is that all Allies discovered in the mines will level up with the posse the same as everything else in the mines, so found allies will automatically become veterans.)
 
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Jee Fu
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Autoduelist wrote:
The Advanced Encounter question is interesting. It's important not to overstate what's actually in the rules. It's not "can't be negated in any way", it's "Advanced Encounters like this cannot be canceled or re-drawn." This wouldn't override Mission requirements that instruct players to ignore Encounters, Attacks, etc. on the final mission space. The instructions also say the Advanced Encounter is added to the Exploration of the room, and its in addition to any Encounters or Attacks listed on the Exploration token. So mission requirements referencing Exploration also wouldn't be overridden.

I'd lean toward not applying the Advanced Encounter myself; however, Flying Frog has had a history of offering variants for Final Encounters that are more challenging (for example, the special chart for Villain Showdowns in A Touch of Evil), so if someone wants to keep the Advanced Encounter for thematic reasons, that'd be fine too.
In the Rule Book for Advanced Encounters it says that the special Encounter is "added to the Exploration." so it sounds like its not part of the Token, so it does happen. This could end up contradicting the rules for the final room so yeah, that's worth a Q.

In regard to things that aren't attacks (like Spinning Kick, Swingiong Rifle, or any other ability that doesan't have the word Attack on it), they... aren't Attacks. They get no +dmg from effects that specify Attacks. This is obvious. Whether they get +dmg from things that don't depends entirely upon whether or not such things generate To Hit rolls that generate damage.

- Jee
 
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Neil Edmonds
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I've reworked the damage question again to read:

Can secondary hits generated by a to-hit roll (Plasma arc, Trederra weapons of war, Cowboy's Trick Shot, Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunslinger's Through Shot) benefit from damage modifiers, even if the successful to-hit roll occurred against another enemy model?

Then the discussion underneath clearly spells out the problem:

The wording is odd because some effects are described as wounds (each adjacent model takes 1 wound), while others are described "as hits" (each adjacent model takes 1 hit). Since some game effects apply to "one of your hits", those effects wouldn't apply to wounds, but might apply to hits, except that no successful to-hit roll was made against the secondary target. Was that the intent - that these secondary attacks should only benefit from things that say "your attack" or "all your attacks"?
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Swinging rifle mentions combat hit because it's not a ranged attack with a gun (also, I believe it's a free attack and wouldn't benefit from the combat bonuses provided by other combat weapons.)

Are the following considered attacks (Soosy's list) ADDED
What damage modifiers apply to Preacher Sermons and Darkstone Shaman Spells ADDED

There seems to be a lot of churn regarding sermons and spells, so I flat out asked for a definitive list of what would apply. It appears to be a point of great concern in a lot of discussions about damage now that dynamite and sawed-off shotguns have been addressed.
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Autoduelist wrote:
Swinging rifle mentions combat hit because it's not a ranged attack with a gun (also, I believe it's a free attack and wouldn't benefit from the combat bonuses provided by other combat weapons.)
Swingin' Rifle just says "in addition to your Attack ... [do this thing]" It doesn't say its a Free Attack, or an Attack at all. I maintain that if something isn't listed as an Attack, then it's not.

Autoduelist wrote:

There seems to be a lot of churn regarding sermons and spells, so I flat out asked for a definitive list of what would apply. It appears to be a point of great concern in a lot of discussions about damage now that dynamite and sawed-off shotguns have been addressed.
Yes, this is why blanket rules work way better than fiddley ones because you can avoid having to make a ruling on every single interaction in the game. We don't need clarifications on spells, or items, or any abilities, as long as the blanket ruling uses language that makes it clear what it does (and what it does not) affect. And we actually DO have that now, kinda. It just results in realLY weird things, like Gun Hits that don't benefit from a Gun's innate +dmg/Ammo.

- Jee
 
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Neil Edmonds
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I figured the actual question might not be used in the FAQ, but it's definitely one of the big drivers for the discussion. Just about every question I read in the forums about damage had the following priorities:

Dynamite
More dynamite because sawed-off shotgun does X....
Sermons
Marks, Runes, and what kind of damage they apply to / are they weapon-specific
Everything else

The fact that damage is still an issue means the response wasn't worded well enough. Hopefully, I've nailed it now, so we can stop talking about it on this thread.

I think an update FAQ release is in order, certainly by the end of August since the community swiftly found some important areas to address regarding damage, critical hits, and allies. At the very least, they'd warrant an official pre-FAQ ruling. Damage & critical hits has a huge impact on hero builds, hero inventory, and how Shadows of Brimstone plays, while the allies clearly need a bit more design work because of unintended complications they introduced within the existing framework of the rules.
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George
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Autoduelist wrote:
I've reworked the damage question again to read:

Can secondary hits generated by a to-hit roll (Plasma arc, Trederra weapons of war, Cowboy's Trick Shot, Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunslinger's Through Shot) benefit from damage modifiers, even if the successful to-hit roll occurred against another enemy model?

Then the discussion underneath clearly spells out the problem:

The wording is odd because some effects are described as wounds (each adjacent model takes 1 wound), while others are described "as hits" (each adjacent model takes 1 hit). Since some game effects apply to "one of your hits", those effects wouldn't apply to wounds, but might apply to hits, except that no successful to-hit roll was made against the secondary target. Was that the intent - that these secondary attacks should only benefit from things that say "your attack" or "all your attacks"?

There is much confusion I think regarding "Hits" because it is used to mean a successful To-Hit roll as well as the standard damage of D6. Really wish there were two separate terms!

In the context of Hits vs Wounds, I think the main difference is that Wounds is most always followed by "ignoring Defense". So ”Hits" are subject to defense while "Wounds" are not. That’s really it, I believe. It doesn’t affect +Damage.

Now there are effects that say +damage to "your Hits" or to "a single Hit". Given the FAQ ruling that a To-Hit roll must be applied to a model, those only take effect on Range/Combat attack rolls anyhow. So whether or not "your Hits" or "a single Hit" might be referring to Hit as a unit of damage (e.g. "automatic Hit"), it doesn't really matter since they won't apply anyway. For instance, the Rancher's Swinging Rifle does an automatic Combat Hit. We don't have to worry about whether "your Hits" effects apply because no To-Hit roll was assigned anyway.

So this part at least, seems to make sense to me. Secondary Hits would not get +damage. But would still get "all your attacks" damage... unless they are deemed to be Splash. So I think the question is still good to confirm those things (as well as have them look at the problematic wording of Trick Shot which we may want to separate out).

Inspector Jee wrote:
sooty wrote:

Perhaps Plasma Arc will get clarified to be splash. But if not:
Main target gets assigned a To-Hit roll so it gets +damage.
The Hit that the Hero gets to assign to the Target doesn't do any damage to the Target; all it does is auto-generate secondary Hits that the Hero does NOT get to assign. These Hits are auto-assigned to the Target + adjacent Enemies, AND their damage does NOT result directly from To-Hit Rolls (they instead result from a Hit that results from a To-Hit roll).

So with my belief that “Hit” is used as a standard amount of damage, this seems like a really wonky way of looking at it. Consider the Plasma text with my additions:

Plasma Arc - Range 8 - Shots 1 - Each Hit counts as 2 Hits [of damage] on the target and 1 Hit [of damage] on each adjacent Enemy. No Critical Hits.

I think that’s all it’s saying. There is still “a successful To Hit roll assigned to that model”.

I don't expect you to see it exactly my way, but for me at least it makes sense this way.

Inspector Jee wrote:
1) Trick Shooting says that the extra Hits generated are from "the same Gun"; Ammo affects Gun Hits - that's literally all it does, so it seems reeeeeally wonky pedantic to claim that these extra Hits don't benefit simply because they didn't result directly from a To-Hit roll. But if you make the claim that they could benefit as such, then you must also let the Plasma Arc use +dmg on ALL its secondary Hits as well.

2) We have no ruling about how +Dmg works if its built-in to the Gun. If we assume it works the same as externally gained +dmg, then the literal interpretation means that Trick Shooting Gun Hits don't gain any +dmg innate to the Gun involved. This is madness, because the Upgrade wouldn't mention that the Hits come from the same Gun if we were meant to ignore a good percentage of all Guns' innate abilities.

Through-Shot for the Rancher also falls into this category because it also says "... with the same Gun ... " but clearly doesn't trigger of an assigned Hit (it triggers from a kill).

I agree the “same Gun” wording of Trick Shooting is very problematic and your points are well made. But I don’t think this points out a problem with damage modifiers in general, so much as this specific wording. Note that Gunslinger’s Through-Shot was errata’d away from very similar wording. I think apart from this ability, ammo generally makes sense to work on the main target and not secondary hits/damage? When we think of Hits as a unit of damage at least.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Here's what I wrote in the FAQ to cover damage (eliminating redundant cases.) Is this sufficient to cover everything now? If not, how would you phrase it instead? If it requires a lengthy explanation, let's spin it up in a separate rules thread and come back to the official FAQ thread once there's a consensus on the question being asked.

Can secondary hits generated by a to-hit roll (Plasma arc, Trederra weapons of war, Cowboy's Trick Shot, Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunslinger's Through Shot) benefit from damage modifiers, even if the successful to-hit roll occurred against another enemy model?

Maybe a new term like Secondary Hits is required? The problem is with the wording in the FAQ:

Damage modifiers may only be applied on Damage to a model from a successful To Hit roll assigned to that model.

Any other Damage caused does not gain the benefits of Damage modifiers unless specifically noted as such in the Damage modifier’s text.


The wording is odd because some effects are described as wounds (each adjacent model takes 1 wound), while others are described "as hits" (each adjacent model takes 1 hit). Since some game effects apply to "one of your hits", those effects wouldn't apply to wounds, but might apply to hits, except that no successful to-hit roll was made against the secondary target. Was that the intent - that these secondary attacks should only benefit from things that say "your attack" or "all your attacks"?

Some specific examples:

The plasma arc says each hit counts as 2 hits to the target and 1 hit to all enemies adjacent to the target.

Weapons of war indicates that to-hit rolls generate additional hits rather than direct damage. How does +Damage from elite abilities, Darkness cards, etc. work in that case?

Do benefits that apply to "your attack" or "all your attacks" also apply to effects that do damage, but don't require a to-hit roll, specifically:

Does the benefit apply when the Hero uses an item that does damage like the Book of the Mad King, the Ring of Oro’sia, Ash of Shadows, Brimstone Ash, and Book of the Lost?

Does the benefit apply to class abilites like Spinning Kick (Saloon Girl), Swinging Rifle (Rancher), End of the Line (Marshal), Shadow Strike (Scout), Feared by Evil (Drifter) and Parry (Saloon girl)?

Does the benefit apply to Preacher Sermons, Samurai Battle Tactics and Shaman Spells? How about the Shaman's lightning field?


Some of the most interesting cases are the Drifter's Feared by Evil (the Drifter isn't doing anything) and the Sermons and Spells which aren't using the hero's ranged or combat to-hit value, but an arbitrary result to determine sermon or spell's effectiveness (strictly speaking it's Jesus/Nature Spirits/the Great Pumpkin/etc. doing something on the hero's behalf, so it makes sense the Sermon or Spell shouldn't benefit from the caster's bonuses.)
 
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Jee Fu
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If automatic Hits generated by your abilities/items counted as "Hits that came from successful To-Hit rolls" then I think we're golden.

That would pretty much solve all our problems, right? And it makes a certain sense - perhaps such Hits have simply by-passed the roll, declared themselves successful, and are now ready to roll damage. How else could we explain it when such Hits are declared "Combat Hits" or "Ranged Hits" (like with Swinging Rifle)? In order to be a Combat Hit, it has to be considered to have come from a successful Combat To-Hit roll. What else does "Combat Hit" mean? Anything that would affect a Hit labeled as "Combat" would be thrown out by the literal interpretation, making such delineations meaningless. Since I have to believe FFP wouldn't put meaningless monikers around on purpose, I have to assume that the presence of said monikers is an indication that automatic Hits - at least for Combat and Ranged Hits - count as a coming from successful To Hit rolls.

- Jee

P.S. Poor Jason. He gives us an FAQ Masterpiece and we celebrate it for all of a week, and then go right back to focusing on problems >< FFP, we still think the FAQ is super-legit and we love it!
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Autoduelist wrote:
Do benefits that apply to "your attack" or "all your attacks" also apply to effects that do damage, but don't require a to-hit roll but aren't labeled as "attacks", specifically:
I would change that to “But aren’t labeled as attacks”.

We already know that “all your attacks” damage doesn’t require a To-Hit roll, that’s what this whole section in the FAQ is about, with the Dynamite and Shiv examples:

Quote:
Any other Damage caused does not gain the benefits of Damage modifiers unless specifically noted as such in the Damage modifier’s text.

Items and Abilities that are ‘+X Damage against <Keyword> Enemies’ are also limited by this same restriction (may only modify Damage on a To Hit roll assigned to a model with that Keyword).

There is one exception to this restriction which is that any Damage modifiers that are granted to ‘an Attack’ or ‘all of your Attacks’ may be applied to any Damage you cause from a Ranged Attack or Melee Attack (including Dynamite, a Dark Stone Shiv, etc.; but not Splash Damage - see below).
 
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George
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Quote:
Can secondary hits generated by a to-hit roll (Plasma arc, Trederra weapons of war, Cowboy's Trick Shot, Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunslinger's Through Shot) benefit from damage modifiers, even if the successful to-hit roll occurred against another enemy model?

I think this question might be mixing too many things now. If it’s answered with a simple yes/no then it will need followups. Also, Sharpshooter and Through Shot use “D6 Wounds” rather than a “Hit” so they don’t even really apply to the main question. I also finally broke open Trederra to look at Weapons of War (can heroes use those or are they just enemy weapons?)
So I would break it down into:

Do Cowboy's Trick Shot, Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunslinger's Through Shot count as Splash? Better yet, can we have a list of all current Splash effects in the game?

Should Cowboy’s Trick Shot be reworded to remove “Hit from that Gun” like Through-Shot was?

How are Damage Modifiers applied to Plasma Arc and the Maximus Heavy Machine Gun (Trederra)? They inflict multiple Hits on the main target, and Hits on secondary targets. Do each of the main Hits get +damage modifiers? What about the secondary hits?

Do weapons that assign Hits without a To-Hit Roll get Damage Modifiers (even though the FAQ says a To-Hit Roll is needed)?


I personally don't think the last question is needed, but it seems to get to the heart of what you guys have a problem with.
 
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Hmm.. then I'm not so sure why some people are getting into a tizzy over Sharpshooter and Through Shot then. Wounds are not the same as hits, so it seems the intent was to provide damage to additional models without them being boosted by "to your hit" effects.

Splash damage is very easy to figure out. It's not splash damage if it wasn't labeled as such. The Rancher, Cowboy, or Gunslinger aren't using buckshot, so it's probably not splash damage -- and just to head off the next "what about" case, you have to go with what's printed on the shotguns in the game if the rancher, cowboy, gunslinger are using them.

Quote:
I personally don't think the last question is needed, but it seems to get to the heart of what you guys have a problem with.

Don't lump me in with Inspector Jee. I just try to summarize the questions people ask in the most concise manner possible.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Thank you

George
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That was helpful.

Cowboy Trick Shot wording (errors section) ADDED
Modification to damage effects not labeled as Attacks ADDED
Modification for question about Plasma Arc and Machinegun ADDED
Modification to eliminate sharpshooter, through shot, and trick shot REMOVED
Modification for "all your attacks" / "your attack" ADDED

Just read the section on damage to review the current version of the questions.

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Autoduelist wrote:
Thank you

George
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That was helpful.

Cowboy Trick Shot wording (errors section) ADDED
Modification to damage effects not labeled as Attacks ADDED
Modification for question about Plasma Arc and Machinegun ADDED
Modification to eliminate sharpshooter, through shot, and trick shot REMOVED
Modification for "all your attacks" / "your attack" ADDED

Just read the section on damage to review the current version of the questions.


Heya Autoduelist,

I saw that you had put what looks like my question on the front page(Thanks!), but one word should be changed:

"Do the missing starting item rules apply to the Orphan's chosen classes - for example, a prospector Orphan can always get a pick axe?"

Instead of "get a pick axe" it should be "buy a heavy pick axe"
Just to clarify since it is a weapon.

I also mentioned a question a day or two ago about whether advanced encounters should be handled when they come up on the final map tile.

Thanks for all the effort.
 
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Autoduelist wrote:
Quote:
I personally don't think the last question is needed, but it seems to get to the heart of what you guys have a problem with.

Don't lump me in with Inspector Jee. I just try to summarize the questions people ask in the most concise manner possible.
That wasn't meant to be a question for the FAQ; I was just trying to come to a quick and likely conclusion out loud. Perhaps elsewhere is better for that kind of thing.

Quote:
Do Cowboy's Trick Shot, Rancher's Sharpshooter, Gunslinger's Through Shot count as Splash? Better yet, can we have a list of all current Splash effects in the game?
I contend that Sharpshooter and Through-Shot don't count as splash. They're not part of the Attack; they trigger off a kill which, despite sometimes being the result of an Attack, is mechanically distinct from Attack itself (we know this because Enemies can die is ways that don't involve Attacks). Splash damage happens immediately when you assign a Hit; it doesn't wait for the other phases of Hit resolution to be finished and it doesn't wait to see if the Enemy is dead. The wording on splash effects all refer to the "target" of an Attack to indicate such. Sharpshooter and Through-Shot make no mention of Attack-based mechanics - there is no mention of the Target, no mention of To-Hit rolls, no mention of Attacks. It just triggers on a kill. If a Gun had an ability like the Book of the Mad King built into it, and you managed to kill something with that ability then these Upgrades would trigger.

I understand leaving them in as examples of ambiguity tho, since the definition of Splash Damage in the FAQ is somewhat ... wide.

Trick Shot is different. It functions similarly to the Plasma Arc in that deals "Splash Hits"; as such, I agree it too needs clarification.

- Jee
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Ok, I'm on it.

Solan wrote:
2. If a Hell Cannon shows up in the "Town Overrun" Town Mission, will the wooden walls of the buildings stop a cannon ball's Travel Path, or will it keep going right through the wooden wall?

It doesn't say it doesn't! This is worth FAQing because there is no mention in the Hell Cannon rules at all about how the cannonball behaves if it strikes a wall (or the edge of a map, or a interior edge). RAW, the Cannon utterly ignores these things, and would therefore goes through ALL walls. That might be the intent, but I think it needs to be cleared up.

Solan wrote:

5. Do you draw from the Low Threat Mine deck when drawing for Sinister Experiments, rather than drawing from the deck in whatever Other World you might be in?
The rules for Sinister Experiments say this:

For each Sinister Experiment a group of Flesh Drones has, draw a regular LOW Threat card ...


There is no reason for the word "regular" to be in here if it wasn't to specify that you were intended to always draw from the standard threat deck, rather than an Otherworld one. This fits with the theme, as the Flesh Stalker is a world-walker.

Solan wrote:

6. If a Hero is Entangled by a Sand Kraken, and the Beast then changes targets and moves across the entire tile to target a different Hero, is the first Hero still entangled?
Yes, until that Hero moves away from that space.

For those who don't know, every Hit done by the Sand Kraken has you draw a random token to determine what the effect of that Hit is (like the Undead Gunslinger and his Special Shot). Most of these options do damage to you; some of them ignore Defense. Some of them destroy your gear (yikes) and some of them Entangle you. The rules for this are pretty clear. If you draw an Entangle token for a Hit, then that Hit ignores Defense and does 0 Damage, but you keep the Token on your Hero Sheet. You are -1 Defense (I think) while Entangled, and further Entangle Hits cause some ridiculous amount of damage. That token stays on your Hero Sheet until you move. It doesn't say that to discard the Token if the Kraken moves (or even if it dies) - the only way out is for you to move. Since you keep the Token with you until you get out of it, there are a maximum number of "Entangles" that can be out there at any given time - so there is your mechanic for limit the amount of Heroes that can be Entangled at once (and indeed, the more than are, the LESS likely you are to draw a second one whilst ALREADY Entangled and take a bunch of damage). The Kraken has many mouth-tentacles; there is no reason to assume it needs to let go of someone just to attack someone else.

- Jee
 
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Advanced Encounter Card ADDED
Hell Cannon ADDED (placed beneath the void sorcerer question.)
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