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Subject: Official clarification about tiles setup rss

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Paulo Santoro
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This is a great game and, like Splendor, it stands out because of the easy and clear set of rules.

Except for the setup. There are already 2 or 3 threads about this here, however there were no official clarifications.

Quote:
Take 9 random tiles per player and place them randomly to build a game
board


I can't believe that this tight game could bear any kind of game board. What about a thin and long board? A board in a cross format? A board full of holes, which would be a lot of "waters"?

I have played only 3 times, and I'm forcing a "regular" format because it seems to make more sense and the ilustration in the rulebook shows a regular board as example, but I think the designer should be explicit about this. Even if the answer is "Yes, it could be thin and long, or a cross format, etc", that answer should be provided. The way it is doesn't let us free, instead let us wondering and guessing.
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Antonio Rettore
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
Ubi lex voluit, dixit; ubi noluit... Latin way of interpreting law and rules.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
akarabat wrote:
Ubi lex voluit, dixit; ubi noluit... Latin way of interpreting law and rules.


We have board games to get rid of this world related shit.
 
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Russ Williams
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
Is this really a real-world practical problem for you, or just some theoretical philosophical thing that annoys you?

I'm personally pretty far along the theoretical nitpick continuum, but I just don't see how it's a practical problem that games with arbitrary setup for gameplay variety don't give a formal specification of how to do the arbitrary setup. E.g. Gipsy King is similar to Barony (which I've still not played, alas!) in this regard, and it's never been a problem for us. Sometimes we intentionally make weird extreme topologies to experiment with them; usually we just make a compact blob. No problem.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
russ wrote:
Is this really a real-world practical problem for you, or just some theoretical philosophical thing that annoys you?

I'm personally pretty far along the theoretical nitpick continuum, but I just don't see how it's a practical problem that games with arbitrary setup for gameplay variety don't give a formal specification of how to do the arbitrary setup. E.g. Gipsy King is similar to Barony (which I've still not played, alas!) in this regard, and it's never been a problem for us. Sometimes we intentionally make weird extreme topologies to experiment with them; usually we just make a compact blob. No problem.


Hello, russ. I like your posts and I just ordered yesterday the game "Greed" after finding it among your favorites.

I can't find anywhere a Gipsy King rulebook in English to take a look, but a translation to Portuguese says something like "The 15 pieces of ground are placed on the table so as to form a continuous and relatively circular region." This is good enough as instruction.

As I quoted, Barony rules only say "Take 9 random tiles per player and place them randomly to build a game board".

Not a theorical nitpick philosophical thing. As I wrote "I can't believe that this tight game could bear any kind of game board." In fact, there is a thread here where a guy complained about the game being broken just before he noticed that he had made a mistake, using "only" 17 tokens instead of 18 in a 2 player game. So one minimum mistake about assembling the board and the game breaks!

As a newbie, I don't want to spoil an early experience with the game by making such a mistake. And this is usually a concern among the designers, so I'm impressed and bothered that the designer/publisher just throw this and insist and not take a position after many requests.

Also about the Gipsy King, if the original rulebook says something like I quoted above, you know what to do with the game out of the box, and then, after some experience, you can play with and "intentionally make weird extreme topologies to experiment with them". Maybe I could try also in Barony in future, but for now it would be better a guideline.

If the game would be just fine with holes or a long thin shape, why not just tell this in rulebook? After all, another customer could look the figure and try every time to reproduce that shape.

And if the game wouldn't be fine this way... why not just tell this in rulebook as well? We buy the game and wish clear instructions. If they were not provided in the box, please just answer a customer question.

 
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Russ Williams
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
PauloSantoro wrote:
Hello, russ. I like your posts and I just ordered yesterday the game "Greed" after finding it among your favorites.

Cool, I hope you enjoy Greed!

Quote:
I can't find anywhere a Gipsy King rulebook in English to take a look, but a translation to Portuguese says something like "The 15 pieces of ground are placed on the table so as to form a continuous and relatively circular region." This is good enough as instruction.

Interesting - I'm surprised that Gipsy King's "relatively circular region" seems good enough to you. I mean, that's still not a formal specification by any means. (There's someone in a different recent thread who complained if a completely specified algorithm was not given to set up arbitrary maps...)

To me GK's rules don't seem any more formal than "Take 9 random tiles per player and place them randomly to build a game board". Both rely on "common sense" / "intuition", and an idea what a "typical" map would/should look like, it seems like.

FWIW for every game like this with an arbitrarily shaped map made of tiles during setup, it seems pretty usual (and obvious...?) that a typical map would be some fairly compact shape, not a long thin string or a thin ring or the like.

And the Barony setup instructions even show a sample map which is compact. So I'm honestly surprised that it wouldn't seem obvious to you that this is what's intended for a typical game.


(But I agree that it's always nice when a publisher or author answers questions in the forum and frustrating when they don't.)
 
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Antonio Rettore
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup

An advice for next reading:

"Homo ludens", Huizinga.

Talking about Barony:

"Invasion" is always possible to permit every board setup.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
akarabat wrote:

An advice for next reading:

"Homo ludens", Huizinga.

Talking about Barony:

"Invasion" is always possible to permit every board setup.


I've already read Homo Ludens, what now?
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
And now there's an official answer from the site (Matagot), where I have asked.

Quote:
You can do the shape you want, but it could happen you will be stuck because you can not progress anymore. We advise to do like in the rules (if it's not perfectly the same it doesn't matter).


Ok then!
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Geert
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Re: Still waiting for official clarification about tiles setup
PauloSantoro wrote:
And now there's an official answer from the site (Matagot), where I have asked.

Quote:
You can do the shape you want, but it could happen you will be stuck because you can not progress anymore. We advise to do like in the rules (if it's not perfectly the same it doesn't matter).


Ok then!

I think it would be helpful if you edit your OP and thread title to reflect that there now IS an official answer to the question about setup.
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Paulo Santoro
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Traquan wrote:
PauloSantoro wrote:
And now there's an official answer from the site (Matagot), where I have asked.

Quote:
You can do the shape you want, but it could happen you will be stuck because you can not progress anymore. We advise to do like in the rules (if it's not perfectly the same it doesn't matter).


Ok then!

I think it would be helpful if you edit your OP and thread title to reflect that there now IS an official answer to the question about setup.


Done, thanks!
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