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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Yin race ability advanced question rss

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First question is if Yin can gain 1 Ground Force against Hostile locals?

Quote:
Before an Invasion Combat in which you are the attacker begins, you may roll 1 die. On a 5+ your opponent loses 1 Ground Force and you gain 1 Ground Force.


In addition this link is of relevance:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/10465309#10465309
Summary is that FFG thinks that Yin will get a ground force even if there are no opposing ground forces. (Mech in this example).

There is a related entry in the faq though:
Quote:
No. The Yin Brotherhood may only use their ability on
Ground Forces belonging to another player.


I would interpret that as Yin cannot discard one of the hostile locals, but they should be able to gain a Ground Force.
The ability isn't targeted against ground forces, it just has an effect on them if possible.
Invasion combat is the trigger of the ability, the rest will happen if able.


Question 2:
When Yin does a planetary landing against a planet with one or more PDS:
Shouldn't they be able to use their ability before PDS fire?
PDS fire is a part of invasion combat.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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Page 10 of the FAQ: the Yin may not use their convert ability on Hostile Locals
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Yes, but what does that mean?

That might just be a clarification that Hostile Locals cannot be discarded.
"Yin may not use their convert ability on Mech" is also true.
(But handled by other rules also)

Also they use the wording "convert".
From the link I posted previous it is obvious that there is no conversion of a Ground Force since there are no requirement that Ground Forces are present.
Could be local population that is converted and killing one eventual Ground Force.
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David Damerell
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halbower wrote:
Page 10 of the FAQ: the Yin may not use their convert ability on Hostile Locals


The difficulty here is that we have a clear statement that "the Yin may only use their ability on Ground Forces belonging to another player" and also that the Yin can use their ability when there aren't any enemy Ground Forces present [1]. This is a mess.

How can we possibly make these rulings compatible? The only way I can see is to think that the first one is meant only to apply to the "enemy loses a Ground Force" part of the ability. Of course, normally this would be a ridiculous interpretation, but it's the only way to square it with the second ruling.

Then it's quite reasonable to argue that against Hostile Locals the Yin ability can be used but only results in them gaining a Ground Force. (Please don't reply to this just citing the first ruling. If you only have the first ruling, of course you wouldn't think that. The point I'm making is that having made this desperate stretch to reconcile two (on the face of it, contradictory) rulings, you end up able to make this argument).

Personally, I would throw the whole mess of rulings away. The Yin can use their convert ability only if there's actually a hostile Ground Force present. It doesn't matter whose it is [2]. It works the same on everyone.

[1] Even better, the other player can magically use Gen Synthesis on the Ground Force they didn't have to lose!
[2] And in general, Distant Suns hostile units (or Custodians, etc) should not be treated specially.
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Steve Williams
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The precendent comes from the way domain counters work. They are not treated as actual ground forces in pretty much any way other than fighting like them. You cannot bombard them, cannot complete objectives that require defeating enemy ground forces from them, and if you are defeated by them, the next invader still has to face the full number regardless of how many were "killed" in previous attempts.

I'm not sure what you mean by your Gen Synthesis footnote? If the opponent didn't have any groundforces to lose, there is no magical interpretation that they somehow get to make a gen synthesis roll, even if the Yin interpretation grants them a free groundforce for some reason.
Edit: Just saw the ruling to the contrary. I completely disagree with it, but I don't write the rules. It doesn't change the above answer regarding Domain Counters.
 
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David Damerell
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IncrediSteve wrote:
The precendent comes from the way domain counters work. They are not treated as actual ground forces in pretty much any way other than fighting like them. You cannot bombard them, cannot complete objectives that require defeating enemy ground forces from them, and if you are defeated by them, the next invader still has to face the full number regardless of how many were "killed" in previous attempts.

Yes, I know that. What I'm saying is that frankly I would discard all that. They respawn (and objectives require you to beat other players because that's what the game's about) and that's how they are different. The rules would be simpler and we'd avoid getting into this kind of mess. It's not like TI3 is so finely balanced that letting people use a few more abilites on domain counters and the Custodians would wreck it.
Quote:
Edit: Just saw the ruling to the contrary.

All else aside I wonder if "this" is just a thinko there and the intention was to say the opponent gets a Gen Synthesis roll if a GF was actually lost, not even if there was no GF to lose.
 
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de du
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Seems sane to just make Hostile Locals spawn Ground Forces.
It won't affect the outcome that much, while simplifying the rules.

Why would Gen Synthesis trigger if no Ground Force was destroyed?

I suppose that you are referring to this link: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/10465309#10465309
If so, I don't think that is what he is saying.
The two questions are related, but I don't think he are answering the same scenario.

 
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Christopher Halbower
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bonega wrote:
Seems sane to just make Hostile Locals spawn Ground Forces.


I'm not sure why this is "sane". You may play the game by any rules of your choosing but the FAQ says the Yin may not use their convert ability on Hostile Locals. If you play otherwise, it would be a house rule.
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David Damerell
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halbower wrote:
bonega wrote:
Seems sane to just make Hostile Locals spawn Ground Forces.
I'm not sure why this is "sane". You may play the game by any rules of your choosing but the FAQ says the Yin may not use their convert ability on Hostile Locals.


That's just citing the first half of the contradiction and ignoring that it exists, which doesn't get us anywhere. Yes, the FAQ says that. The FAQ also says that "The Yin Brotherhood may only use their ability on Ground Forces belonging to another player." And Corey says the Yin can use it when there aren't any enemy Ground Forces at all. These second and third "clarifications" contradict each other.

It would be more sane because a GF would be a GF, whoever it belonged to, and we'd eliminate some of these edge cases surrounding domain counters and the Custodians.

Quote:
If you play otherwise, it would be a house rule.


This is completely obvious to everyone, so why point it out?
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Paul Oberlin
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The point is that these abilities that get you something during combat like the Yin or the Gen Synth require that you are engaging with an opponent's forces (ground or mech), as opposed to a distant suns counter (or presumably, the defenders of mecatol rex). I don't know why FF has ruled this way, but that is their ruling. It might be that they want these benefits to come at the cost of hostility with one of the other players, as opposed to some neutral that you get to beat up on for free.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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damerell wrote:

This is completely obvious to everyone, so why point it out?


Because this is the rules forum not the variants forum. If the discussion is going to be about variants, then let's move the thread there and I'll bow out.
 
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Christopher Halbower
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The ruling by Corey is what is questionable. I wonder if Corey is willing to revisit this ruling. The rules, the FAQ, seem okay to me. It's Corey's emailed ruling that poses a problem. He maybe didn't see a contradiction when he made that reply.

Now, if only someone would email Corey with this question and the contradiction that has been noted...
 
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Christopher Halbower
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The Gensynthesis ruling must also apply to Dacxive Animators too, right?
 
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David Damerell
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halbower wrote:
damerell wrote:

This is completely obvious to everyone, so why point it out?

Because this is the rules forum not the variants forum.

It is perfectly commonplace for discussion of rules here to include the idea that the rule is no good, and to suggest a house rule. It is not necessary or desirable that a thread be moved to the variants forum every time that happens.

This is even more true in this case where the rules, including Corey's ruling, are on the face of it contradictory. Almost any response to this situation is going to look a bit like a house rule because you're going to have to decide some bit of the FAQ or ruling doesn't mean what it seems to mean - you may claim to be a RAW purist but you're either going to have to decide the later ruling can be ignored or that "only works on Ground Forces" includes working when there aren't any Ground Forces, both of which look very like varianting to me.
 
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obermeister wrote:
The point is that these abilities that get you something during combat like the Yin or the Gen Synth require that you are engaging with an opponent's forces


Gen Synthesis has no such requirements.
The bonus to combat roll is active in invasion combat.
Respawn will trigger whenever one the player's Ground Force is destroyed.
(I guess it would even trigger from scuttling your own carrier)

Your point though might be right, but it is unknown at this time.
Clearly Corey's email tells us that not all of the ability must resolve.

Race sheet wrote:
Before an Invasion Combat in which you are the attacker begins, you may roll 1 die. On a 5+ your opponent loses 1 Ground Force and you gain 1 Ground Force.


Corey's email wrote:
Yes, you would gain the ground force even in your opponent did not have any to lose.


I think the ability should be viewed something like an action card with "play before an invasion combat".
Action cards must be fully resolved if able, but they will resolve partially if unable.
Therefore "the Yin may not use their convert ability on Hostile Locals" only means that a part of the "action card" won't resolve.
 
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PK Levine
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bonega wrote:
First question is if Yin can gain 1 Ground Force against Hostile locals?


The creators themselves have made it explicit that the answer is no. So playing with any other rule isn't an interpretation -- it's definitely a house rule.

That said, it's a very good house rule. Yin was great with the base game, but every expansion and optional rule seems to nerf them. It's most true to the race -- and pretty much the only way to make them viable -- to simply rule that their ability applies to "planetary forces" in general. In other words, let them convert one miniature/token of Ground Forces, Mechanized Units, Hostile Locals, or Custodians of Mecatol Rex.

Quote:
Question 2:
When Yin does a planetary landing against a planet with one or more PDS:
Shouldn't they be able to use their ability before PDS fire?
PDS fire is a part of invasion combat.


No, PDS fire is explicitly a "pre-combat" roll. It would be another house rule to let the Yin's ability work before PDS fire. Personally, I'd be okay with one or the other, but both would make them overpowered.
 
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David Damerell
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pkitty wrote:
bonega wrote:
First question is if Yin can gain 1 Ground Force against Hostile locals?

The creators themselves have made it explicit that the answer is no. So playing with any other rule isn't an interpretation -- it's definitely a house rule.


This is what was discussed above - citing one ruling without taking into account the other ruling which introduces an apparent contradiction - which of course doesn't really get you anywhere. It also mis-cites that ruling, which is not helpful when it is the exact wording which introduces the contradiction.
 
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