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Subject: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system? *Update* rss

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James Carlton
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I've got an idea for a card game that I'm thinking of using a Poker style Hi-Lo system for resolving combat because it involves two diametrically opposed stats (let's call them Speed and Power) with the idea that in a conflict you could potentially win in one area or possibly both.

I have a few ideas on how this might work. I'm not sure it would be using Poker style hand scoring (I remember Hi-Lo games of Poker being a nightmare to score sometimes) but maybe more like that players have a starting Power stat and a Speed stat and can play cards that add or subtract from either or both (with strong cards for one aspect usually negatively affecting the other). After a set number of cards are played you see who has the highest Power score and who has the lowest Speed score and those people 'win' and get to attack or perform an action.

Something I'm wrestling with is encouraging players to try and win both and not just resort to a 'draw' all the time (ie. one person goes for speed, the other power and then each side 'wins' one half of the conflict over and over discouraging people from balanced 'builds' that just get dominated by min maxers). My current idea is having a 'bust' value of say, 0 or 10 and have some cards also affect your opponents score allowing you to bait your opponent and cause them to stumble or overextend.

Any other games out there that do this sort of thing? (besides Poker obviously) Any other systems that have a Speed vs Strength or Brain vs Brawn type of interaction would also be welcomed. Thanks.

**UPDATE** See below for my current idea.
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Tomello Visello
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Koldfoot wrote:
In Tigris and Euphrates players score points in 4 areas. The winner is the person whose least developed area is the most developed least developed area.

See also Ingenious (same designer). Your weakest category is your score.

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Oblivion Doll
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Can't think of a combat system that works like this, myself.

It sounds like it could be really interesting, though.

Maybe you could have a derived "balance" stat which is based on how close the midpoint between your two stats is to the midpoint between the two extremes they can reach? That way, using cards to unbalance your opponent's stats could EITHER be good for throwing them into "bust" one way or the other, OR to tip the "balance" level in your favour without overextending them entirely.

EDIT: Forgot to clarify - if both players win on one side each, balance acts as the tie-breaker.
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Carel Teijgeler
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
I always think hi-lo games are luck of the draw.

How are you mitigate that?
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James Carlton
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
anijunk wrote:
I always think hi-lo games are luck of the draw.

How are you mitigate that?


Yeah it's kind of doing my head in. I realised you almost don't need two stats, in theory a high score is "strong" a low is "fast" but finding it difficult to bring strategy into it. So far the gameplay in my head seems to be "Pick a strategy and hope they play the opposite one to me".

I quite like the way it works in Ninjato but that's against fixed enemy cards not other people.

Maybe it's not so much High/Lo as doing one thing makes you worse at the other... so you can either be strong or fast, difficult to be both.

Might have to think on it some more.
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James Carlton
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
obliviondoll wrote:
Can't think of a combat system that works like this, myself.

It sounds like it could be really interesting, though.

Maybe you could have a derived "balance" stat which is based on how close the midpoint between your two stats is to the midpoint between the two extremes they can reach? That way, using cards to unbalance your opponent's stats could EITHER be good for throwing them into "bust" one way or the other, OR to tip the "balance" level in your favour without overextending them entirely.

EDIT: Forgot to clarify - if both players win on one side each, balance acts as the tie-breaker.


That might work actually... I did have a third stat in mind. I like the way Forbidden Stars does this having Attack and Defense and Morale. In the first three rounds Attack and Defense can destroy your opponent or keep you alive while morale is useless but after that, the player with the most morale wins.
 
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Rahul Chandra
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Kobayakawa is a 1-card poker game where the low card gets a bonus - often enough to win - so like in hi-lo working out which way people are going can help you make the right choices.
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MGS
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Battleball certainly has an element of this. Depending on the position, each player has a die associated to them. They range from d4 hrough d20. When moving, the bigger die is advantageous allowing the player to potentially move a lot farther. But, when two players battle, whoever rolls the lower number wins. So, players are faster but weaker or slower and stronger.
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James Carlton
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Ronaldo wrote:
Battleball certainly has an element of this. Depending on the position, each player has a die associated to them. They range from d4 hrough d20. When moving, the bigger die is advantageous allowing the player to potentially move a lot farther. But, when two players battle, whoever rolls the lower number wins. So, players are faster but weaker or slower and stronger.


Hmm I don't actually want to use dice but that's kinda giving me some ideas.

Great response ppl, thanks!
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Jonas Resting-Jeppesen
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
I don't know if this falls in under this category, but it´s quite interesting.

In HMS Dolores each player gets points for his/hers highest valued stacks of cards and their lowest valued stacks.

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Eric Nolan
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Not sure if this really relates to what you are asking but Samurai has three separate things that people are trying to get the highest number of. If you win two out of the three you win the game (this is hard to do but possible especially if you work out exactly what you need to get when other players are still working to gain points in a resource they are already winning). If you don't win any then you are out. The most likely result is that multiple people have all won in one resource and in that case there is a secondary win condition involving how well you did in the resources you didn't win compared to the other players.
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Naomi Ooooooooo

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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
Between Two Cities the lowest scoring city you worked on is your score.
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James Carlton
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Re: Any games that use a Hi-Low scoring system?
So I'm mulling over something like this...

When there's a conflict each player draws a hand of cards (5-7), the cards will probably be something more custom but it will work with a standard deck. (so values 1 to 13. Suits not important for now).

Each player plays a card or card(s) in turn and the last person able to play a card 'wins'.

On your turn you can either:

* Play a single card higher than the last card.
* Play multiple cards with a sum lower than the last card.

So high cards are great, but so are lots of small ones. Playing extremely high or low values is easy to counter with the opposite strategy. Aces will probably work well Blackjack style as 1 or 11.

I haven't really tested it yet but I think it would be fast and fairly straightforward. What I'm now trying to think of is how to give players an advantage for being fast (low), strong (high) or being good at both. Some ideas:

Fast Players:

* Draw more cards at the beginning (larger hand size)
* Can have permanent -x when playing multiple cards

Strong Players:

* Can discard and redraw some cards?
* Can have permanent +x when playing a single card

Balanced Players:
* Can play double cards as high values as long as they don't 'bust' (14+)
* Can play double cards as low values and 'loop' around to low values? (9+6 = 15 - 13 = 2)

Plenty of other things that could be done with suits, wildcards etc. Not sure if there's a dominant strategy yet.
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Oblivion Doll
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This topic has been something of an inspiration in a game design I had in the back of my mind when it showed up. I've got a "main" project I've been working on for a competition, and an "on hold" project I've put aside for the moment, but this conversation inspired me to try and create something a bit different from either. So now I've been working on this third project for a bit, and I think it might be worth sharing some of what I've been working on.

The core of the system is a contested roll with each player having 3 D6s. After rolling, each player plays one of 3 cards (total parts: 6 dice and 6 cards). The cards are functionally a rock-paper-scissors system, but they don't decide who wins the combat instantly. The 3 cards apply 3 different scoring systems to the roll, and whichever system wins is used to determine the winner of the combat. In addition, playing a card which "beats" your opponent's gives you an option to manipulate the dice, which can tip the balance if you chose an option which wasn't ideal for your roll.

The reason this topic inspired it is because 2 of the options are high and low - If the high card wins, then higher rolls on the dice are better. The third option is a balanced option which aims for the middle ground between them, making mediocre rolls desirable over high OR low values when it comes up.
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MGS
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Jasta wrote:
So I'm mulling over something like this...

When there's a conflict each player draws a hand of cards (5-7), the cards will probably be something more custom but it will work with a standard deck. (so values 1 to 13. Suits not important for now).

Each player plays a card or card(s) in turn and the last person able to play a card 'wins'.

On your turn you can either:

* Play a single card higher than the last card.
* Play multiple cards with a sum lower than the last card.

So high cards are great, but so are lots of small ones. Playing extremely high or low values is easy to counter with the opposite strategy. Aces will probably work well Blackjack style as 1 or 11.

I haven't really tested it yet but I think it would be fast and fairly straightforward. What I'm now trying to think of is how to give players an advantage for being fast (low), strong (high) or being good at both. Some ideas:

Fast Players:

* Draw more cards at the beginning (larger hand size)
* Can have permanent -x when playing multiple cards

Strong Players:

* Can discard and redraw some cards?
* Can have permanent +x when playing a single card

Balanced Players:
* Can play double cards as high values as long as they don't 'bust' (14+)
* Can play double cards as low values and 'loop' around to low values? (9+6 = 15 - 13 = 2)
Plenty of other things that could be done with suits, wildcards etc. Not sure if there's a dominant strategy yet.


This dynamic resembles Button Men and the recently posted (here) variant for Pairs called Parallels. You should most certainly check them out.
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