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Subject: Shadow War: Armageddon, We Hardly Knew Ye rss

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matthew mclaughlin
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Well, it was a fun couple of months.

A lot of lists were built and tinkered with, a lot of models painted and/or converted, a lot of games were played by league players at my FLGS, and a few games were even played by me.

And then 40K 8E dropped.

And so did Shadow War: Armageddon, as in: dropped off the radar.

Kill Team had been gaining steam at my FLGS in the months leading up to SWA, which led to quite a few players embracing SWA when it was released. But now all attention has turned to 40K 8E, and the big points games are starting back up and the SWA league has been all but abandoned.

The 8E rules are very nice. Having started playing 40K with 2E, I have to admit...these new rules are really good.

I wonder if that hurts SWA, which is now using an extremely "archaic" set of rules. Time will tell, I suppose, but I'm not sure if the players (at my shop, at least) go back to SWA. Only myself and one other player got hold of the boxed set, anyway, so there was no real investment by anyone.

I wonder if we'll see a newer skirmish game - like Kill Team - that uses 8E rules. If so, I'm not sure anyone would go back to SWA.

Which is a bummer.

I like SWA a lot, and even though I am very, very impressed by the new rules set for 40K, I don't see myself going back to large scale battles.

It's all too bad, as with a little more support I feel SWA could have established a lasting fan base. Curious decisions regarding the game by GW from the start. Seems like it could have been an easy system to support/update.

Has 40K 8E impacted SWA in your gaming group or at your FLGS?
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John Paul Messerly
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Yes our SWA group died the instant the new edition of 40k went up for pre order. It's sad because while the skill charts are archaic I find the hide, overwatch, run, suppression (pinning) mechanics far more interesting than the fistfuls of dice in the other GW games.

It's also summer and that tends to kill regular gaming groups. Both My local SWA and bloodbowl leagues both died in the last month. I won't be playing 8th... too expensive and the games take too long. Luckily there are lots of skirmish choices like walking dead all out war and Rumbleslam.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Well, 8th ed had an impact to SWA play (that was expected, and foretold many times both here and in r/ShadowWarArmageddon ), but it did not kill it off.

It is probably because at our FLGS there is a community of people who played Necromunda back then, and we used to play Necromunda "on the small tables" between large games of WH40K "on the large ones". That is a thing we all used to do, so we still do that.

Anyway, if the new and hotly anticipated game is stealing the spotlight, it is actually well deserved.
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Thomas Koziatek
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I think once the shiny wears off 8th Ed. some folk will keep playing SWA. A lot of evenings there just isn't time to play a big battle game, and an hour long SWA game is just what is needed.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Sure, if someone keeps playing, that is what eventually we should strive for. A quick skirmish that is solved in an hour (including pre- and post- match sequences) is a gift from heaven
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Dave Graffam
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I picked up SWA with the intention of running hybrid skirmish-roleplay kinds of narrative campaigns, the sort of thing Miniwargaming did with Space Hulk Deathwatch. I need roleplayers for that, not necessarily 40K players.

I'm actually relieved that the 40K players in my league aren't showing up for SWA nights anymore. We have three 40K veterans -- they're playing Harlequins, Tyranids, and Grey Knights. It's not fun to play against those teams, in the same way that it's not fun to bring a wet noodle to a gun fight.
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Ronald Delval
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I didn't pick it up as being embracing of the large scale 40K warfare game. I'm through with that.
But I am a big fan of smaller scale games like Mordheim and Necromunda.
So I personally do not mind. Same setting, different style.
If anything it might have been fun if the game had a bit more Necromunda/Mordheim style content.
But all in all I'm pleased.

Don't take me wrong, the new 40K edition like AOS have their place and are an improvement but I like Shadow Wars as its own 'thing'.
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jon ike
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I'm done with GW boxed games.
Really hate the one and done releases. No long term support despite having a "dedicated specialist games division" whatever that means these days.

Was really hoping they'd maintain this for us old folks that liked 2nd edition and as an alternative to Sigmar in Space.

I know...I know hope leads to disappointment...
 
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Charlie Theel
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40k 8th is great and this is kind of to be expected. But we'll still be playing Shadow War at my house. I think this game will live on maybe with only a fraction of its potential popularity. But it will live on.
 
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Mauricio Riquelme
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jombie wrote:
I'm done with GW boxed games.
Really hate the one and done releases. No long term support despite having a "dedicated specialist games division" whatever that means these days.

Was really hoping they'd maintain this for us old folks that liked 2nd edition and as an alternative to Sigmar in Space.

I know...I know hope leads to disappointment...


What would you like, then? Expansions?

I think is great to have a game that you could play straight out of the box, withoun needed anything else or feeling incomplete. Also, there's always White Dwarf to some extra misions and rules, but don't make you buy another overpriced box like some FFGolks.
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Ryan DeLano
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I bought SWA as an introduction to 40k for my group. The low cost of entry is a great way for me to familiarize them with the setting and some of the relevant mechanics of 40k without breaking the bank. Once I have them hooked, the plan is to play 40k 8th edition in a narrative format of some kind, since my group is mostly a bunch of roleplayers.
 
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Andy Nichols
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Nogardo wrote:
What would you like, then? Expansions?


This isn't going to happen, but...

I'd like sensible kill team boxes for sale as the ones at the moment are over the top. For example, the Chaos box contains 12 special operatives (2 spawn, 5 raptors, 5 terminators). Because the 10 marines are just the 10 marines from a normal chaos marines pack they haven't even got access to all the SW:A weapons, for example there's no autocannon.

So what I'd like to see is a box with:

A leader
2-3 special ops (depending on faction) with enough weapons that there's at least one of each
Enough troopers to fill out the rest of the kill team
Where recruits are different models to troopers, 5 recruits
One of each special operative with all the weapon and equipment options

If they made models with different poses to 40k models then they could make sales to 40k players as well to give them some variety. I'd expect the packs to be quite expensive on a cost per model basis, but still cheaper than the existing offers which have far more models than are required.
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Jim Patching
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jombie wrote:
I'm done with GW boxed games.
Really hate the one and done releases. No long term support despite having a "dedicated specialist games division" whatever that means these days.

Was really hoping they'd maintain this for us old folks that liked 2nd edition and as an alternative to Sigmar in Space.

I know...I know hope leads to disappointment...


I'm not sure what else you would need? There's masses of terrain available and absolutely piles of miniatures. What extra support is needed for you to enjoy the game and keep on playing it for as long as you want?
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Mauricio Riquelme
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AndyNichols wrote:
Nogardo wrote:
What would you like, then? Expansions?


This isn't going to happen, but...

I'd like sensible kill team boxes for sale as the ones at the moment are over the top. For example, the Chaos box contains 12 special operatives (2 spawn, 5 raptors, 5 terminators). Because the 10 marines are just the 10 marines from a normal chaos marines pack they haven't even got access to all the SW:A weapons, for example there's no autocannon.

So what I'd like to see is a box with:

A leader
2-3 special ops (depending on faction) with enough weapons that there's at least one of each
Enough troopers to fill out the rest of the kill team
Where recruits are different models to troopers, 5 recruits
One of each special operative with all the weapon and equipment options

If they made models with different poses to 40k models then they could make sales to 40k players as well to give them some variety. I'd expect the packs to be quite expensive on a cost per model basis, but still cheaper than the existing offers which have far more models than are required.


I agree with all of the above.

There's this guide that GW send to stores of recommended boxes that costumers can buy.



Remember that SWA is heavily directed to players who already has a lot of minis or bits and pieces lying around. So I guess it's up to us to do some conversions...
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matthew mclaughlin
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Nogardo wrote:

What would you like, then? Expansions?


It's always good to have continued support for any game - it gives the game a presence, which brings awareness, which attracts new players.

Sure, I can and will keep playing this game (my wife and friends like the theme more than they like Necromunda's theme), but it'll eventually reach a point where "it's all been done before" - same scenarios, same factions, same opponents.

So far, at my shop, with the event of 40K 8E, SWA went from having a very active gaming community to nothing - players have either gone back to full-on 40K or have returned to playing Kill Team (with 8E) rules because it allows a choice of more factions and troop types.

Hopefully, at the very least, we'll get some new rules/scenarios/factions in WD to bring some of these players back.
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jon ike
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Nogardo wrote:
jombie wrote:
I'm done with GW boxed games.
Really hate the one and done releases. No long term support despite having a "dedicated specialist games division" whatever that means these days.

Was really hoping they'd maintain this for us old folks that liked 2nd edition and as an alternative to Sigmar in Space.

I know...I know hope leads to disappointment...


What would you like, then? Expansions?

I think is great to have a game that you could play straight out of the box, withoun needed anything else or feeling incomplete. Also, there's always White Dwarf to some extra misions and rules, but don't make you buy another overpriced box like some FFGolks.


Personally for me I'd like Modules like old school AD&D -
Sort of like what GW used to do with 40k but without models as others have said earlier no need for new models or terrain.

A different setting than Armageddon that's more neutral. Terrain set up ideas / encounters / custom experience progressions and different scenarios kinda stuff. Maybe sneak in more RPG elements - I don't know where I"m headed with this. Just throwing ideas out there.

I know I can and should be doing this on my own, but life gets in the way!

White Dwarf doesn't always have content for Specialist Games in fact the last copy I bought was that September issue that focused on content for Specialist Games.
If they did include something like campaign modules spread across a few WD issues, I wouldn't mind if they sold all the WD content as a stand alone - expansion. Kinda like what the community did with Space Hulk. Compiled all the maps and scenarios into a file.

Anyways. Thanks for listening to me vent!



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Nogardo wrote:
Remember that SWA is heavily directed to players who already has a lot of minis or bits and pieces lying around. So I guess it's up to us to do some conversions...


Yep! That's me! laugh

I like *all* of the GW miniatures, and started with Space Crusade. I prefer casual games and boardgames, where one person brings the game for others to play. I collect GW miniatures from gamers who was getting out of the game, rather than buy specific units. So, with SWA, hopefully, I can use my hodgepodge of all GW models with the kill teams lists, rather than have to build armies and keep up with the latest GW codex.

I think I'm thus better suited for skirmish miniature wargames. Should dig up Advanced Space Crusade and Space Crusade sometime. Was 40K Kill Teams any good?
 
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Michael Becker
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The one thing which makes me hesitate on the new 40K edition is that I would need another batch of codex books. I have models from most of the army ranges so keeping up on the new rules for each group becomes expensive.

SWA doesn't need any of these splat books and that automatically keeps the price manageable.
 
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Jared Voshall
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Michael Becker wrote:
The one thing which makes me hesitate on the new 40K edition is that I would need another batch of codex books. I have models from most of the army ranges so keeping up on the new rules for each group becomes expensive.

SWA doesn't need any of these splat books and that automatically keeps the price manageable.


Fortunately, that's one area that GW seems to have really learned their lesson. While they're definitely not as nice as with Age of Sigmar (where all of the model rules are available free for download, as long as you don't mind having any of the fluff from the codices), they have made available all of the rules for the models in a set of 5 $25 codices - Imperium I (All things Space Marines), Imperium II (Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and basically everything else Imperium), Chaos (what it says on the cover), Xenos I (Everything Eldar plus Necrons), and Xenos II ('Nids, Tau, and Orks). Definitely a far site better than the $30+ per codex they were charging for each faction - maybe they've finally learned that they sell more minis if people have reasonable access to the rules to play them with?
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Magius wrote:
Michael Becker wrote:
The one thing which makes me hesitate on the new 40K edition is that I would need another batch of codex books. I have models from most of the army ranges so keeping up on the new rules for each group becomes expensive.

SWA doesn't need any of these splat books and that automatically keeps the price manageable.


Fortunately, that's one area that GW seems to have really learned their lesson. While they're definitely not as nice as with Age of Sigmar (where all of the model rules are available free for download, as long as you don't mind having any of the fluff from the codices), they have made available all of the rules for the models in a set of 5 $25 codices - Imperium I (All things Space Marines), Imperium II (Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and basically everything else Imperium), Chaos (what it says on the cover), Xenos I (Everything Eldar plus Necrons), and Xenos II ('Nids, Tau, and Orks). Definitely a far site better than the $30+ per codex they were charging for each faction - maybe they've finally learned that they sell more minis if people have reasonable access to the rules to play them with?

They also just announced that there will be Codices coming soon, and they may adjust stats in those Codices. Of course, if you're just playing with friends and not in an official setting, you can continue using the stats from the Indices. If you are only using any models that are no older than the Dark Imperium boxed set, the Indices should serve you well.
 
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If Shadow War is overcome by events, that is Shadow War's fault. Necromunda survived and thrived for years in the shadow of Mothership 40k. To be sure, Shadow War is Necromunda revised for the 2010's. Oddly, Shadow War's strengths are also it's weaknesses.

Concept. It's set firmly in the 40K mainstream, not an obscure corner like Necromunda. It uses mainstream 40K miniatures and terrain. Not one single mini unique to the game. That makes joining in the fun a breeze. But, at the expense of commitment.

Setting. It does not push the setting strongly, and in fact, allows for a generic, any comers, anywhere fighting. Very unlike very specific Necromunda. It could have focused just on the Armageddon underhive, but it did not. So, it loses any environment specific flavor. But, welcomes Tyranids and Necrons and Tau with open arms. Just like vanilla ice cream has wider appeal than Pistachio FroYo (which is the best FroYo, ya'll). I guess it appeals to those passionate about vanilla?

Components. Top notch. And, kinda pricey. The terrain is on the high end of what a 40K aficionado would use. The Scouts and Orks are good enough, but very common.

Accessibility.
In fact, the decision to go 40K all the way weighs heavily, here. If you have the box set, you have all you need to field two Kill Teams. Yes, you could add more Orks, or Special Operatives. But, you don't need to. If you have any ONE of the bread and butter 40K squads, you are good to go. This is a very easy tabletop game to get into. Or, get out of.

Campaign. Really easy, really streamlined. But, not really compelling. Except for my Genestealer Cult, most teams start out with pretty decent stats. Your nameless fighters advance. But, generically. And, there are caps that keep them from getting heroically good. Between games, teams acquire weapons and gear at a crazy rate. After a few games, every fighter is festooned with more stuff than they can carry. They rapidly max out on gunsights and clip harnesses. Teams starting with Ballistic Skill "4" (like Scouts and I-Guard veterans) are soon all hitting on 2+, even when shooting at targets behind light cover. In both my campaigns, after 4 or 5 games, there really wasn't much more to buy. Games are still fun. But, the campaign takes a back seat, instead of being the main attraction like Necromunda.

Timing is everything. So, I'll admit New 40K swept up some players before they even had a chance to play SW:A. But, it also claimed active SW:A players. Yes, releasing 40K 8th Edition so soon after SW:A was bizarre. But, as much as I like the game, Shadow War is not an innocent bystander. Oh, and selling out nearly instantly didn't help one bit.
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Mark
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TwentySides wrote:
Magius wrote:
Michael Becker wrote:
The one thing which makes me hesitate on the new 40K edition is that I would need another batch of codex books. I have models from most of the army ranges so keeping up on the new rules for each group becomes expensive.

SWA doesn't need any of these splat books and that automatically keeps the price manageable.


Fortunately, that's one area that GW seems to have really learned their lesson. While they're definitely not as nice as with Age of Sigmar (where all of the model rules are available free for download, as long as you don't mind having any of the fluff from the codices), they have made available all of the rules for the models in a set of 5 $25 codices - Imperium I (All things Space Marines), Imperium II (Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and basically everything else Imperium), Chaos (what it says on the cover), Xenos I (Everything Eldar plus Necrons), and Xenos II ('Nids, Tau, and Orks). Definitely a far site better than the $30+ per codex they were charging for each faction - maybe they've finally learned that they sell more minis if people have reasonable access to the rules to play them with?

They also just announced that there will be Codices coming soon, and they may adjust stats in those Codices. Of course, if you're just playing with friends and not in an official setting, you can continue using the stats from the Indices. If you are only using any models that are no older than the Dark Imperium boxed set, the Indices should serve you well.


Close, but not exactly. So far, the new codices out, or mentioned (Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and Grey Knights) are $40 each. And, they officially replace the Index Datasheets. With lot's more goodies and abilities, most likely. And, lot's of background and pictures.
 
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matthew mclaughlin
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With REAL Necromunda coming back -

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/breaking-news...

I can't help but feel...I don't know if bilked is right word, but maybe a bit duped by SWA. It was a game GW clearly didn't intend to support, with 40K 8E and now Necromunda hot on its heels.

Admittedly I didn't invest heavily in it, having all the terrain and minis I needed, and only buying the boxed set. But others had, and while they can of course continue to play SWA, I don't think a real community will ever exist around the game (40K players will keep 40K'ing, Necromunda players will get back to Necromunda).


You have to wonder what Shadow War Armaggedon was all about - was GW testing the waters to see if Necromunda-style rules/play would fly with "modern" gamers? This is possible, as GW didn't have to produce new models to produce the game, and the terrain kits could be used in 40K.
 
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When they originally launched the Specialist Games section, Necromunda was specifically mentioned as a potential subject. My problem was that I thought SW:A *was going to be* their new version of Necromunda. I was wrong about that, but I'm not upset by it. Necromunda being released is one of the best things that could happen for gamers in the GW community - just like Blood Bowl was for thousands of others.

If Shadow War Armageddon was a test of the waters, I'm glad it was successful and we now can look forward to Necromunda. I wouldn't be surprised if the two games are compatible, anyway and I would hope they would add factions other than "human gangs" as options. You never know.
 
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It looks like new Necromunda ain't nothing like Shadow War. Or Necromunda. Some details:

That's 40K 8th Edition.
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