Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Thunderbolt Apache Leader» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Starting Aircraft Selection Strategy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Aaron Brown
United States
Northglenn
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So I had my head handed to me on day 2 of my first campaign, and I'm having trouble knowing what else to try.

One thing that's really difficult is having usable aircraft. With 30 SO points I could only afford 1 A-10 and 4 AH-64s in total.

Since each aircraft can only be used once per day, how do you fly four missions in two days? I had 12 hits worth of damage to fix on three aircraft after the first mission!

What am I missing?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Davis
United States
Missouri City
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think most everybody has that happen to them with the first campaign. I'm not sure why the recommended first campaign is the one with the automatic lose condition of losing if you don't complete 4 successful missions in the first two days. Maybe it's trying to teach us how to lose.

Certainly you've learned that you need to keep your aircraft and pilots safe. The more you can do to take out enemies before they can fire on you the better. Fast pilots help with that as does taking time to figure out your attack plan.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rahul Chandra
Canada
St. John's
Newfoundland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Two good aircraft (and 1 point of munitions) should be able to handle most missions, without too much damage.

You can get another aircraft or so by using Random Squadron selection, as well as extra fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Brown
United States
Northglenn
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rchandra wrote:
Two good aircraft (and 1 point of munitions) should be able to handle most missions, without too much damage.


See there's the issue...what 'should be able to' happen and what actually happens are often very different.

I tried again today and lost my only squadron A-10 the third loiter turn mission one, day one.

Aaaaaand that campaign is lost, starting again...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moe45673
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
The Surge scenario is ridiculous as an intro one. Either do Show of Force or Rapid Deployment, or houserule (just for introductory reasons) that you only need to do 1 or *gasp* 0 destroyed each day.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Brown
United States
Northglenn
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the discussion!

I'm going to try just two aircraft per mission and see if it gives me enough firepower to get a better result.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Beckler
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Echoing the others, avoid Surge for your early ones. Go with Show of Force in Libya in the 1986 time frame. I think you can pick up 2 A-10A and 2 AH-64A safely (maybe a 3rd AH-64A). Perfectly alright to "walk back" moves in your early missions as you are learning how the Fast/Enemy/Slow sequence works and the timing of when you take hits from enemy units. And don't sweat the Loiter Counter too much either but focus on learning how to time your movement using Low altitude and terrain to mask your approaches to the more dangerous enemy units.

Keep posting your questions and experiences - there's an active group here happy to discuss.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivan Boscaro
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
randombrown99 wrote:
So I had my head handed to me on day 2 of my first campaign, and I'm having trouble knowing what else to try.

One thing that's really difficult is having usable aircraft. With 30 SO points I could only afford 1 A-10 and 4 AH-64s in total.

Since each aircraft can only be used once per day, how do you fly four missions in two days? I had 12 hits worth of damage to fix on three aircraft after the first mission!

What am I missing?

Who states that a single plane or pilot can fly only a single mission per day ? I re-read the rules but I - maybe - missed that passage stating this... Can you tell me where it is written that you can 1 pilot / plane per single mission / day ?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivan Boscaro
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rdavis01 wrote:
I think most everybody has that happen to them with the first campaign. I'm not sure why the recommended first campaign is the one with the automatic lose condition of losing if you don't complete 4 successful missions in the first two days. Maybe it's trying to teach us how to lose.

Certainly you've learned that you need to keep your aircraft and pilots safe. The more you can do to take out enemies before they can fire on you the better. Fast pilots help with that as does taking time to figure out your attack plan.

I did not understand why they used such division in Fast / Slow pilots... Usually in modern warfare (as in ancient warfare too) who strikes first usually is the winner due to the fact that he can kill the enemy before retaliation of the enemy itself... Then... What that mechanic should represent ?!?
And why this game doesn't reproduce the use of Chaffs and Flares decoys by each of the modern aircraft ?
I usually see my TAL campaigns f**** up by the fact that the game mechanics doesn't reproduce correctly the use of such type of decoys
while usually they save lives of modern wingmen... If compared to the wingmen of the past... In which there were more "dogfights" taken out using machineguns and cannons instead of heat seeking / radar or laser driven missiles, which can more easily avoided (to a certain extent, and because of that decoys I referred to up above this thread) if than the fire coming from an enemy plane's gatling gun or cannon !!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivan Boscaro
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
randombrown99 wrote:
rchandra wrote:
Two good aircraft (and 1 point of munitions) should be able to handle most missions, without too much damage.


See there's the issue...what 'should be able to' happen and what actually happens are often very different.

I tried again today and lost my only squadron A-10 the third loiter turn mission one, day one.

Aaaaaand that campaign is lost, starting again...

This event happened to me too... But it is due to the fact that this game doesn't reproduce the use of Chaffs and Flares decoys by the modern planes and choppers...
And also that the AH-1, Av-8, AH-64A have a Cannon attack number that is too much high in order to reach it with a single d10 roll... Expecially if your aircrafts have taken some bad damage to the HUD, the Displays or the Cannon themselves (imagine an AH-1 with its already high ratio with a damage to the HUD; it needs to roll an 11 by rolling a d10, which is an impossible thing ) !!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Brown
United States
Northglenn
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmmm...now that I think on it perhaps I just assumed that based on the results I'm getting.

In my continued attempts at Surge/Show of Force, I find that my pilots end up with too much stress to fly more than one mission per day (I won't send a pilot on a mission if he's going to be in a Shaken state from the mission stress alone, much less from enemy fire).

Typically day two is a "no fly" day for the entire squadron. I'm keeping on it though!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Beckler
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SALTER wrote:
randombrown99 wrote:
So I had my head handed to me on day 2 of my first campaign, and I'm having trouble knowing what else to try.

One thing that's really difficult is having usable aircraft. With 30 SO points I could only afford 1 A-10 and 4 AH-64s in total.

Since each aircraft can only be used once per day, how do you fly four missions in two days? I had 12 hits worth of damage to fix on three aircraft after the first mission!

What am I missing?

Who states that a single plane or pilot can fly only a single mission per day ? I re-read the rules but I - maybe - missed that passage stating this... Can you tell me where it is written that you can 1 pilot / plane per single mission / day ?


Wow! I had missed that these past couple years! Maybe this was obvious to the rest of the group, but hadn't occurred to me...

Looking at page 7 and 8:

"Allocate Pilots and Aircraft
Choose which Battalions you will Attack during this Campaign
Day. Then, select the Pilots and Aircraft from your Squadron that will Attack each Battalion and place their cards together
for later use. Each Pilot assigned to a Mission must be pairedup
with an Aircraft Card he is allowed to fly. Each Aircraft
assigned to a Mission must have an appropriate Pilot. Do not
assign Pilots to Unmanned Aircraft."

The example goes on to show where 4 pilots were assigned across 2 different missions, but the rules don't expressly prohibit a pilot flying multiple missions on a given day:

"Example: On Day 1, I choose to fly 2 Missions. I choose to send
Scuttle and Grandpa in two AH-1s, Pirate in an A-10 and Hammer
in an AH-64 to Battalion Target 12A. I also want Freak and Eagle
and their Aircraft to Attack 9A. I place each Battalion Card with the
assigned Pilots and Aircraft near the Tactical Display Sheet."

This is further reinforced by the fact that when it comes to allocating Scouts, that DOES have a "once per day" restriction:

"Each Scout may only be used for one Mission per Day, and you may only
assign one Scout to each Battalion."

Edit:
I suspect that the intention was to have only a pilot & plane fly only once per day, given how they chose to word the example, but that is how the rule is written...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vance Strickland
Canada
Nepean
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
See this thread:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/830716/missions-day

The 2nd or third entry states that Dan says it's one per day.

But the whole thread is interesting.

2 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Beckler
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
randombrown99 wrote:
Hmmm...now that I think on it perhaps I just assumed that based on the results I'm getting.

In my continued attempts at Surge/Show of Force, I find that my pilots end up with too much stress to fly more than one mission per day (I won't send a pilot on a mission if he's going to be in a Shaken state from the mission stress alone, much less from enemy fire).

Typically day two is a "no fly" day for the entire squadron. I'm keeping on it though!


Aaron, perhaps you can provide some details on how some of your missions are going and the decisions you are making pre-mission? Pics are always nice as well. Perhaps some folks can give you some pointers.

I only fly 1 pilot & plane per day and usually can only go a couple days before they need rest due to stress. I minimize the stress by:

1. Using scouts to increase my loiter time, which reduces the stress from over-loitering.
2. Planning to only halve a full-strength battalion and attack again later rather than try to destroy it outright in one attack.
3. Saving a couple SO points for a Priority R&R.
4. Staying LOW and avoid ridge-hopping whenever possible - I go HIGH usually at the end to score the needed number to reduce the battalion. Having extra loiter time gives you the chance to spend more time maneuvering through the terrain and shielding your planes from enemy fire.
5. Always carry jammer pods for supported planes.
6. Keep a FAST pilot around to take out the really nasty threats on round 1.
7. Selecting a variety of aircraft in my squadron. Having a squad of (3) A-10s means you get 4 pilots to shoulder the stress. A squad of (1) A-10s, (2) AH-64, and (2) AH-1 gives you 8 pilots to shoulder the stress for less than the (3) A-10 mix.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Brown
United States
Northglenn
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
[q="randombrown99"]
Aaron, perhaps you can provide some details on how some of your missions are going and the decisions you are making pre-mission?


That's a good idea! I will take notes the next campaign attempt and let you know.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivan Boscaro
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
SALTER wrote:
randombrown99 wrote:
So I had my head handed to me on day 2 of my first campaign, and I'm having trouble knowing what else to try.

One thing that's really difficult is having usable aircraft. With 30 SO points I could only afford 1 A-10 and 4 AH-64s in total.

Since each aircraft can only be used once per day, how do you fly four missions in two days? I had 12 hits worth of damage to fix on three aircraft after the first mission!

What am I missing?

Who states that a single plane or pilot can fly only a single mission per day ? I re-read the rules but I - maybe - missed that passage stating this... Can you tell me where it is written that you can 1 pilot / plane per single mission / day ?


Wow! I had missed that these past couple years! Maybe this was obvious to the rest of the group, but hadn't occurred to me...

Looking at page 7 and 8:

"Allocate Pilots and Aircraft
Choose which Battalions you will Attack during this Campaign
Day. Then, select the Pilots and Aircraft from your Squadron that will Attack each Battalion and place their cards together
for later use. Each Pilot assigned to a Mission must be pairedup
with an Aircraft Card he is allowed to fly. Each Aircraft
assigned to a Mission must have an appropriate Pilot. Do not
assign Pilots to Unmanned Aircraft."

The example goes on to show where 4 pilots were assigned across 2 different missions, but the rules don't expressly prohibit a pilot flying multiple missions on a given day:

"Example: On Day 1, I choose to fly 2 Missions. I choose to send
Scuttle and Grandpa in two AH-1s, Pirate in an A-10 and Hammer
in an AH-64 to Battalion Target 12A. I also want Freak and Eagle
and their Aircraft to Attack 9A. I place each Battalion Card with the
assigned Pilots and Aircraft near the Tactical Display Sheet."

This is further reinforced by the fact that when it comes to allocating Scouts, that DOES have a "once per day" restriction:

"Each Scout may only be used for one Mission per Day, and you may only
assign one Scout to each Battalion."

Edit:
I suspect that the intention was to have only a pilot & plane fly only once per day, given how they chose to word the example, but that is how the rule is written...


In my opinion it is a silly thing... In real life a pilot doesn't do a single mission per day !!! In a real war you could also fly for days and days with no rest and few food like what occurred in the WW II once the German pilots were obliged to fly and fight, fly and fight, fly and fight with no rest at all for days !!! And the SS gave them drugs too in order for them to be "reactive" and "don't feel the need to eat or rest" !!!
Also the British used to drug the soldiers: in North Africa a full battallion of British tank drivers and gunners was annhilated because they continued to attack and attack wave after wave (due to the drugs they had taken) but their "sacrifice" helped Montgomery to breach the enemy lines in the Battles of El Alamein... And so did the Americans during Vietnam War or the Italian and French Armies during the WW I (but with the aid of wine not drugs, since at that time the drugs for soldiers were not so widespread and used)!!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.