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Subject: ww2 thoughts rss

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G J
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Hello! i had a thought a couple weeks ago regarding world war 2, i was wondering on the scale of 10,5 and 1 miles per hex how different are the army sizes? What time frame would each turn be? and other random thoughts

I ask these because i currently know of two series which simulate world war 2 in Europe in the 10 mile per hex scale (tsww and Europa) and was wondering what would be gained from having a ww2 eto at the scale of 5mphex or 1 mphex.

i also realize that human arm reach has probably peaked at the current scale of europa and tsww, so the game would have to be broken down into several different tables and require a MASSIVE room to be played in, i did a very rough calculation and i think playing a 5mp hex eto would require a 30ft by 40ft map that would require an even larger room as you would need room for standing in between portions of the map. Thoughts?

at such a rapid increase in the size needed for such a sized game would the differences between 5 and 1 miles per hex be too minuscule to warrant a change since the rapid growth of space needed is HUGE.

Another thought, how many miles per hex are needed before abstraction of naval combat is done? (individual ships firing at each other rather than a die roll or two)

i dont know why i made this thread i just keep imagining the how epic such a game would be. any thoughts?
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Leo Zappa
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I think if this were 1978 and I were 15 years old again this would be an awesome thing to behold. However, since it's 2017 and I'm 54 years old all I can think of is how much such a game would cost and the fact that it almost certainly would never get set up, let alone played.
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Colin Raitt
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I don't have enough time, space or money.
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Bob Roberts

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We solved this issue in the early 80's with our idea to play underwater. That way no one has to stand on the board or reach too far.
It does have a few inherent difficulties of its own. whistle
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marc lecours
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There must be a transition point between "epic" and "drudgery".
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Pelle Nilsson
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badinfo wrote:
We solved this issue in the early 80's with our idea to play underwater. That way no one has to stand on the board or reach too far.
It does have a few inherent difficulties of its own. whistle


Or a big wall, magnetic counters, ladders.
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Tony Doran
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Well, at 10 miles per hex you are looking at divisions and regiments/brigades with the occasional battalion. Many games on Norty Africa are at this scale (Desert Fox, Afrika, Rommel's War, The Legend Begins) and all of these have that unit scale. At 5 mikes per hex you can use more battalions, but it is still possible for the game to center on Divisions (e.g. EFS, OCS and the like. But your time scale will shrink to one week or less per turn.
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Mark J.
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The game would take longer than the actual war did.
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Robert Stuart
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TTM07 wrote:
The game would take longer than the actual war did.

Not if it was designed for 40 million players.
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Bill Eldard
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narodynot wrote:
Well, at 10 miles per hex you are looking at divisions and regiments/brigades with the occasional battalion. Many games on Norty Africa are at this scale (Desert Fox, Afrika, Rommel's War, The Legend Begins) and all of these have that unit scale. At 5 mikes per hex you can use more battalions, but it is still possible for the game to center on Divisions (e.g. EFS, OCS and the like. But your time scale will shrink to one week or less per turn.

Time scale is impacted less by unit size than by unit range. Unit movement factors are adjusted to the desired time scale.

This is easier in a tactical game, where vehicle speed can be translated readily into hexes per turn, adjusted for terrain, etc. It gets more challenging as you scale up to operational and then strategic level. It's been my experience in strategic level games that movement factors are abstracted to reflect actual shifting of frontlines over the course of the selected time scale.
 
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Cameron Taylor
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Eldard wrote:
This is easier in a tactical game, where vehicle speed can be translated readily into hexes per turn, adjusted for terrain, etc. It gets more challenging as you scale up to operational and then strategic level. It's been my experience in strategic level games that movement factors are abstracted to reflect actual shifting of frontlines over the course of the selected time scale.


There are generally agreed upon unopposed movement rates for different unit types in military manuals. Advance and retreat rates are more controversial to calculate.
 
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Jim F
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Who knew trench warfare could be such fun?
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Bill Eldard
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SeriousCat wrote:
Eldard wrote:
This is easier in a tactical game, where vehicle speed can be translated readily into hexes per turn, adjusted for terrain, etc. It gets more challenging as you scale up to operational and then strategic level. It's been my experience in strategic level games that movement factors are abstracted to reflect actual shifting of frontlines over the course of the selected time scale.


There are generally agreed upon unopposed movement rates for different unit types in military manuals. Advance and retreat rates are more controversial to calculate.

For corps and armies? Can you give me some examples?

I look at a game like The Russian Campaign, where in a turn representing two impulses, a panzer corps advances 11 hexes unopposed in clear weather. The distance from Warsaw to Moscow is twenty hexes. That means that it takes well over 3.5 months (4 impulses) to go the distance. The actual driving distance between the two cities is less than 720 miles. Even if the panzer corps moved a mere 100 miles a day, it would complete the trip in less than 8 days. To put it another way, if it moved 100 miles every third day (using two of every three days to maintain vehicles), it would complete the trip in under a month.

My point is that the larger the scale, the more the designer relies on game effect more than physics.
 
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Steve
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Eldard wrote:
SeriousCat wrote:
Eldard wrote:
This is easier in a tactical game, where vehicle speed can be translated readily into hexes per turn, adjusted for terrain, etc. It gets more challenging as you scale up to operational and then strategic level. It's been my experience in strategic level games that movement factors are abstracted to reflect actual shifting of frontlines over the course of the selected time scale.


There are generally agreed upon unopposed movement rates for different unit types in military manuals. Advance and retreat rates are more controversial to calculate.

For corps and armies? Can you give me some examples?

I look at a game like The Russian Campaign, where in a turn representing two impulses, a panzer corps advances 11 hexes unopposed in clear weather. The distance from Warsaw to Moscow is twenty hexes. That means that it takes well over 3.5 months (4 impulses) to go the distance. The actual driving distance between the two cities is less than 720 miles. Even if the panzer corps moved a mere 100 miles a day, it would complete the trip in less than 8 days. To put it another way, if it moved 100 miles every third day (using two of every three days to maintain vehicles), it would complete the trip in under a month.

My point is that the larger the scale, the more the designer relies on game effect more than physics.

I think that a lot of the slow movement is caused by the problem of bringing up fuel to keep going. It takes a lot of trucks to move that much fuel and they burn fuel.

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Bill Eldard
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Steve1501 wrote:
Eldard wrote:
SeriousCat wrote:
Eldard wrote:
This is easier in a tactical game, where vehicle speed can be translated readily into hexes per turn, adjusted for terrain, etc. It gets more challenging as you scale up to operational and then strategic level. It's been my experience in strategic level games that movement factors are abstracted to reflect actual shifting of frontlines over the course of the selected time scale.


There are generally agreed upon unopposed movement rates for different unit types in military manuals. Advance and retreat rates are more controversial to calculate.

For corps and armies? Can you give me some examples?

I look at a game like The Russian Campaign, where in a turn representing two impulses, a panzer corps advances 11 hexes unopposed in clear weather. The distance from Warsaw to Moscow is twenty hexes. That means that it takes well over 3.5 months (4 impulses) to go the distance. The actual driving distance between the two cities is less than 720 miles. Even if the panzer corps moved a mere 100 miles a day, it would complete the trip in less than 8 days. To put it another way, if it moved 100 miles every third day (using two of every three days to maintain vehicles), it would complete the trip in under a month.

My point is that the larger the scale, the more the designer relies on game effect more than physics.

I think that a lot of the slow movement is caused by the problem of bringing up fuel to keep going. It takes a lot of trucks to move that much fuel and they burn fuel.

But that varies greatly depending upon the activity of the units and the distances to sources of supply. And that's my point. The movement factor is based on an effect, which is tied to distance, efficiency, etc. What if two-thirds of the panzer corps units are not moving or fighting that turn -- couldn't the logistics be focused to extend the range of the active units? Some strategic games approach this with supply points, while others ignore it. And fuel can be moved by road, rail, and/or water, so that would certainly have an impact. In Russia, the Germans spent a great deal of effort changing the gauge of the railroad track so they wouldn't have to offload trains from their gauge to load onto trains of the Russian gauge.

In other words, in The Russian Campaign, I could've assigned a panzer corps a movement factor of 7, or 8, or 17, depending on what gives me the game effect I'm trying to achieve. As long as a unit can trace a supply line back to a source, it can move to its full allowance. A game like Rommel in the Desert addresses this with supply cards, which drive the players to accumulate supplies in order to launch offensives, and thus creates a realistic pulsing effect. Supply is also affected by distance from the main supply line, so the opponent has an realistic incentive for driving deep into the defense in order to cut supplies.
 
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