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Subject: American meddling in foreign elections? rss

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Brian S.
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Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations filed a formal protest over Tillerson’s statement, saying it revealed “a brazen interventionist plan that runs counter to every norm and principle of international law,” and a group of prominent Iranian reformists wrote a public letter condemning Tillerson’s “interventionist” stance.


Full story.
 
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Moshe Callen
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Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations filed a formal protest over Tillerson’s statement, saying it revealed “a brazen interventionist plan that runs counter to every norm and principle of international law,” and a group of prominent Iranian reformists wrote a public letter condemning Tillerson’s “interventionist” stance.


Full story.

Of course. Part of the reason Bibi won this last election so handily was because it came out how much Obama was spending to try and get anyone else into office. Israelis reacted with protests saying that our elections cannot be bought.

To be fair, I only know it is the popular conception that Obama tried to interfere with the elections. I did not quickly find reliable sources that says so. The link is about an opinion poll confirming that such is or was the popular Israeli public opinion.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Obama-interfering-in-I...

I'm inclined to think there's truth to it but cannot definitively say so.
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Josh
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The US is more in the business of interfering after the election if the 'wrong' guy wins, with bombs.
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Andre
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It is probably naive to think that we don't do this to others, i.e., attempt to influence elections, either openly, or surreptitiously.

Laughs, the CIA has a long history of attempting coup d'etats, and has succeeded on occasion. It is even purported one such toplling may have involved a U.S. President.

But it would also be naive to think that other countries do not attempt to influence ours. The recent Russian interference is obviously the most blatant and most recent. They will attempt to do what they did again, and we should attempt to deflect their efforts.

This is just the normal spycraft going on, we are simply more in tune with what is going on because modern technology allows that.

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Shadrach wrote:
The US is more in the business of interfering after the election if the 'wrong' guy wins, with bombs.


After we helped put them there of course.
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Mutton Chops
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I'm always reminded, in situations like these, of the end of "The Three Days of The Condor":

Turner: Do we have plans to invade the Middle East?
Higgins: Are you crazy?
Turner: Am I?
Higgins: Look, Turner…
Turner: Do we have plans?
Higgins: No. Absolutely not. We have games. That's all. We play games. What if? How many men? What would it take? Is there a cheaper way to destabilize a regime? That's what we're paid to do.
Turner: So Atwood just took the games too seriously. He was really going to do it, wasn't he?
Higgins: A renegade operation. Atwood knew 54/12 would never authorize it, not with the heat on the company.
Turner: What if there hadn't been any heat? Suppose I hadn't stumbled on their plan?
Higgins: Different ballgame. Fact is, there was nothing wrong with the plan. Oh, the plan was all right, the plan would've worked.
Turner: Boy, what is it with you people? You think not getting caught in a lie is the same thing as telling the truth?
Higgins: No. It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. And maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then?
Turner: Ask them.
Higgins: Not now — then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!
Turner: Boy, have you found a home. There were seven people killed, Higgins.
Higgins: The company didn't order it.
Turner: Atwood did. Atwood did. And who the hell is Atwood? He's you. He's all you guys. Seven people killed, and you play fucking games!
Higgins: Right. And the other side does, too. That's why we can't let you stay outside.

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Mike Stiles
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whac3 wrote:
Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations filed a formal protest over Tillerson’s statement, saying it revealed “a brazen interventionist plan that runs counter to every norm and principle of international law,” and a group of prominent Iranian reformists wrote a public letter condemning Tillerson’s “interventionist” stance.


Full story.

Of course. Part of the reason Bibi won this last election so handily was because it came out how much Obama was spending to try and get anyone else into office. Israelis reacted with protests saying that our elections cannot be bought.

To be fair, I only know it is the popular conception that Obama tried to interfere with the elections. I did not quickly find reliable sources that says so. The link is about an opinion poll confirming that such is or was the popular Israeli public opinion.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Obama-interfering-in-I...

I'm inclined to think there's truth to it but cannot definitively say so.


That link is a bit content lite, as far as the intereference angle goes. What is BO accused of doing? (I see in your post something about spending money, but that's not in the article). I'm legitimately curious.

~~~

In the case of Iran, 'meddling' is a weird term. The US (and the rest of the world) would LOVE a more liberal regime in Iran, and I can see the US spending money on it.

The big question is "Is this PAC style meddling or Russia style meddling?" ie are they spending money on propaganda, etc to sway the election or are they actually committing crimes to attempt to undermine it?

All that said, it's a perfect line for the Conservative Iranian government, which always wants to sow hate for the US, and this is a nice nebulous unprovable (and undisprovable) accusation to make.
 
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windsagio wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations filed a formal protest over Tillerson’s statement, saying it revealed “a brazen interventionist plan that runs counter to every norm and principle of international law,” and a group of prominent Iranian reformists wrote a public letter condemning Tillerson’s “interventionist” stance.


Full story.

Of course. Part of the reason Bibi won this last election so handily was because it came out how much Obama was spending to try and get anyone else into office. Israelis reacted with protests saying that our elections cannot be bought.

To be fair, I only know it is the popular conception that Obama tried to interfere with the elections. I did not quickly find reliable sources that says so. The link is about an opinion poll confirming that such is or was the popular Israeli public opinion.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Obama-interfering-in-I...

I'm inclined to think there's truth to it but cannot definitively say so.


That link is a bit content lite, as far as the intereference angle goes. What is BO accused of doing? (I see in your post something about spending money, but that's not in the article). I'm legitimately curious.

As I stated, I can't now find proof it was the case. At the time, I saw the same articles most Israelis did and so came to believe Obama had interfered, but as stated in my post, I only found a link to establish that such was the perception-- not that such a perception was correct.

EDIT:
Oh, Obama is accused of sending his own campaign advisors to advise Herzog's campaign and backing it with millions of US dollars of his own money.
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Thanks, I was mostly not clear on the specifics of the intervention.

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windsagio wrote:

In the case of Iran, 'meddling' is a weird term. The US (and the rest of the world) would LOVE a more liberal regime in Iran, and I can see the US spending money on it.

The big question is "Is this PAC style meddling or Russia style meddling?" ie are they spending money on propaganda, etc to sway the election or are they actually committing crimes to attempt to undermine it?

All that said, it's a perfect line for the Conservative Iranian government, which always wants to sow hate for the US, and this is a nice nebulous unprovable (and undisprovable) accusation to make.


I love how the Iranians, who "always wants to sow hate", find a "perfect line" in nebulous propaganda but the US, who "would LOVE" a different regime, it's compared to legal "PAC style" meddling (which is a "weird term" to use).
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windsagio wrote:
Thanks, I was mostly not clear on the specifics of the intervention.


There were accusation Obama did things he would be forbidden as a foreigner to do with his money but the calls for an inquiry got nowhere. I am more inclined to think this means there was no provable basis to the accusations than anything else. Where Bibi is concerned, Obama went downright crazy in his spite and rage but he was never stupid.
 
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viclineal wrote:
windsagio wrote:

In the case of Iran, 'meddling' is a weird term. The US (and the rest of the world) would LOVE a more liberal regime in Iran, and I can see the US spending money on it.

The big question is "Is this PAC style meddling or Russia style meddling?" ie are they spending money on propaganda, etc to sway the election or are they actually committing crimes to attempt to undermine it?

All that said, it's a perfect line for the Conservative Iranian government, which always wants to sow hate for the US, and this is a nice nebulous unprovable (and undisprovable) accusation to make.


I love how the Iranians, who "always wants to sow hate", find a "perfect line" in nebulous propaganda but the US, who "would LOVE" a different regime, it's compared to legal "PAC style" meddling (which is a "weird term" to use).


Well they're ENTIRELY different.

On one hand, there's spending money to effect the election. This is not uncommon for interests to do, and may or may not be illegal.

The other hand is a straight up propaganda line. Whether the US interfered or not (which is very believable, but there's not even an iota of evidence I've seen), it's a very convenient thing for the Iranian government to say, especially in the context of noise about Russia.

~~~

Even if the US didn't interfere (and we only have the word of a pretty notoriously unreliable government), the accusation itself serves as valuable propaganda... and possibly as a bit of deflection.

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Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Is this a rhetorical question?
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J.D. Hall
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Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Yes. Next question.
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Brian S.
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windsagio wrote:
The US (and the rest of the world) would LOVE a more liberal regime in Iran, and I can see the US spending money on it.
Any American meddling is not going to help the Iranian reformists. The reformists are also crying "foul".

windsagio wrote:
The big question is "Is this PAC style meddling or Russia style meddling?" ie are they spending money on propaganda, etc to sway the election or are they actually committing crimes to attempt to undermine it?
Aren't unflattering leaks and fake news propaganda? Rather hypocritical of us to hold others to standards that even we don't meet.

crescent_gamer wrote:
Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?
Is this a rhetorical question?
Yes. I like rhetorical questions.

remorseless1 wrote:
Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?
Yes. Next question.
What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
 
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windsagio wrote:
The big question is "Is this PAC style meddling or Russia style meddling?" ie are they spending money on propaganda, etc to sway the election or are they actually committing crimes to attempt to undermine it?


What's the difference? Interfering is interfering, regardless of the method and supposed legality.
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JasonJ0 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
The big question is "Is this PAC style meddling or Russia style meddling?" ie are they spending money on propaganda, etc to sway the election or are they actually committing crimes to attempt to undermine it?


What's the difference? Interfering is interfering, regardless of the method and supposed legality.


Well no, if it's legal it's entirely different than if it's illegal. If they are meddling it's likely illegal though.

~~~

US interference has been a sore point in Iran since Mossadeq, and for a good reason. I just got off on the 'wow Iran saying something bad about the US! SHOCKING!' angle.
 
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Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations filed a formal protest over Tillerson’s statement, saying it revealed “a brazen interventionist plan that runs counter to every norm and principle of international law,” and a group of prominent Iranian reformists wrote a public letter condemning Tillerson’s “interventionist” stance.


Full story.


I'm sure your right. We are no better than any one else and torture and kill just the same. So let's let the nuclear weapons fly now since we are all just the same.
 
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windsagio wrote:
Well they're ENTIRELY different.

On one hand, there's spending money to effect the election. This is not uncommon for interests to do, and may or may not be illegal.

The other hand is a straight up propaganda line. Whether the US interfered or not (which is very believable, but there's not even an iota of evidence I've seen), it's a very convenient thing for the Iranian government to say, especially in the context of noise about Russia.

~~~

Even if the US didn't interfere (and we only have the word of a pretty notoriously unreliable government), the accusation itself serves as valuable propaganda... and possibly as a bit of deflection.


Is it possible for a country who would love to see different regimes to use propaganda lines, and for a country who sows hate against another to be meddling, PAC-style?
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Brian S.
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maxo-texas wrote:
Vrooman wrote:
Russia has been in the news of late for their alleged attempts to influence foreign elections. Does the U.S. do the same?

Quote:
On Wednesday, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations filed a formal protest over Tillerson’s statement, saying it revealed “a brazen interventionist plan that runs counter to every norm and principle of international law,” and a group of prominent Iranian reformists wrote a public letter condemning Tillerson’s “interventionist” stance.


Full story.


I'm sure your right. We are no better than any one else and torture and kill just the same. So let's let the nuclear weapons fly now since we are all just the same.
I don't recall suggesting any of that.
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