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Subject: Rules are pretty unclear to me rss

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I'm having quite a bit of trouble understanding some of the basic rules and some situations that seem very common yet aren't talked about at all in the rulebook.

1. When you roll an "X" for grabbing onto a branch, you go back a number of spaces equal to the 'original' base movement of your spirit, but then, do you have to roll again to grab onto your new spot? I might be blind, but I see nothing in the rulebook even alluding to this.

2. When your opponent lands on a tile, for example "Bouncy Mush", that tells them to immediately roll movement again, but what if I have a rune card that lets me go to where they are (or swap positions with them), can I play it before they apply the effect of their newly landed on tile? or should I be waiting until they are "stationary"? or should I be waiting until their turn ends?

This is an annoying situation not described by the rulebook because the tiles say to play immediately and the rune is said to be playable at "any time" in the game. These two absolute statements conflict with each other with no clarification.

3. The most annoying tile in the game, the "Rotten Branch", it says to roll to grab twice, but does not specify if you need to roll the second time if you've already hit your goal number without seeing the "X". Also, do the same rules for getting a double "X" or double goal number apply?

4. Next is, are the tiles supposed to be placed face up or face down onto the board? I saw a video that showed it played face up, but the rulebook doesn't say, and may even be hinting that it's supposed to be face down until someone first lands on it.

5. If I'm playing as the spirit with base movement +1, and I lose the 'grab roll' with double "X", do I go back 2 all at once skipping tiles I pass over? or do I go back 1 and then 1 activating any tile I land on?

6. Another annoying tile is "Whirlwind". The rule written is "Each player now plays as the spirit belonging to the opponent on their right. Pass the colored tokens to the left to remember your new spirit". What the heck does "plays as" mean in this context? For example, me and another player out there on the board, do I start literally playing their character piece FROM wherever they are (meaning I am now in a different location)? Or do I now play AS his character but from my original spot wherever I was?


In general I feel pretty bummed at how poorly the rules are written for such a simple game.
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Trevyn Mace
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I'm having the same issues as you but I'd like to add one that I couldn't find in the rules at all, maybe I just missed it but nonetheless I can't figure it out and it seems broken:

When do you draw more Rune cards? Is it whenever you play a card? Is it once per turn? Beginning of your turn? End of your turn?

Played that you draw a card after you play a card and it was just plain madness spamming the Rune cards, so I hope that's not the official rule lol.
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Thomas Filippi
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Hello Trevyn,

Thomas here from Flyos Games.
Concerning the runes cards: you start with three, can use them whenever you want (between rounds even) but once you used one, you have to default it.

The only way to get more cards is to land on the rune tiles (on the board)
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Thomas Filippi
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Hello Shaitani,

Thomas From Flyos Games here:

1. no you don't. once you fail to grab the first, your misery stops and the god of the winds have mercy on your soul (for the moment)
2. You can use it after, before, in between rounds. (yes, you have the right to be a sneaky smarty and play tricks on your friends)
3.rotten branch is a "bad luck" tile, meaning than not only you have to grab the first branch (wich is rotten) but even if you succeed you have to do it again if you want to stay put. Failing, or double failing means that you go back (depending on your character) (cf: point number 1)
4. It would be REALLY off-setting to have to return every tile during the game, so no, face up. (but this is an interesting gameplay that you are free to try and give some feedback on it)
5. you go back 2 right away and apply the tile effect you land on (if any)
6. you play as his character. Remember that this tile, as the whirlwind rune cards can be lay aside for a game or two. Maybe, you and your friends want to stay put with your personal own character for a game? no one forbids it (I promise that i won't knock on your door and ask you to play by the "rules")

Concerning the rules, Kiwetin is a fast, family, board game, that last from 5 to 15 minutes: it is meant to play quick, to have a blast and to start over. You don't like a rule, change it, share it, talk about it.

Kiwetin is the first board game of Flyos Games, we have much to learn so feel free to play with your house rules and to share it around.
If you have an improved mechanic that you feel is amazing, feel free to share it with us and we may be able to include it in the second version of the game.
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H HH
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1. That is great to hear, I was worried I've been playing completely wrong this whole time.

2. Interesting, that would make people try to move quicker so people don't use runes at them, and that would make people throw runes quicker without thinking sometimes causing chaos. I can live with that.

3. The reason I hate this Rotten Branch card is illustrated here, even after you've explained it, I still have maybe 6 different ways of interpreting the rule. Here is an example, I land on rotten branch I roll only one "X", do I immediately fall? Or do I roll the second time and then if I get another "X" that counts as a double "X"? I think the moral of the story here is, write my own meaning for this tile and play by that because everyone who owns this game is for sure playing this tile slightly differently.

4. Regarding the tiles being face down at the beginning. I've found that it provides an expected level of randomness where sometimes you make a last ditch effort to land on an unknown tile (ie a tile that no one has landed on yet) in order to try to catch up. And then other times it's frustrating when you unintentionally land on one and it destroys your progress. All that said, I haven't done it yet, but I suspect face up is a better way to go, it gives you a little more control over your 'future'.

5. Ok, definitely important to know, and I prefer it this way.

6. I feel like I still didn't get an answer to the question, "play as", that has two meanings, you'd have to refer to my original comment to get an explanation of the two, but I'm starting to think that I want to throw this tile out forever.

So, in short, the idea of the player changing rules and writing their own is not a good thing in my eyes. If I was going to do that I'd just make my own game, I want to play by YOUR rules, explicitly written hopefully. I don't want people I play with to be arguing over the meaning of a rule because we're all having misunderstandings about what a tile does, or how a rune is played, etc...

You mentioned as your first game you have much to learn, I think the biggest takeaway you should have with this game is to write your rules without any room for interpretation. Explicit and clear, don't leave it in the hands of the player to figure out what to do. If they want to change your rules, they can and will do that, but we need a solid foundation of instruction to fall back on. Lastly, forgive me if I'm wrong and this doesn't apply to you, but if there isn't someone on your team with a STRONG understanding of English semantics, I would add such a person. Vice versa for French, and any language you translate your games to. Even people that only speak one language might not have a strong appreciation for subtle differences in words and their meaning causing the rulebook to have room for interpretation. I cannot stress enough how important the rulebook is in terms of explicitness and clarity.
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James Woods
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With regards to the whirlwind, I believe that is the purpose of the colored circle pieces. You have them in front of each player to remind them of who they're playing as, and when whirlwind is invoked you swap the cardboard circles to the left. This means the person who was playing as the piece which was closest to the top may now be playing as the piece which is at the bottom and vice versa. Does that make sense?
We've found it to be a great gameplay addition, getting groans from my daughter whenever it appears on the board.
The rotten branch we just treat as a double check. If you fail the first it's a normal fail, but if you pass it you then have to check again, with the two checks being"unconnected", if that makes sense. Any doubles must be thrown simultaneously.
While I do think the rules were a little open in places, we found them to be relatively ok to figure out, and I feel that you may be overthinking them a little? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, honest!
 
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Crystal Schrader
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We played this game tonight and like several others found the rulebook lacking/confusing in many areas. Rune cards are not mentioned in the final page describing the gameplay.

Questions we had:

I just finished with a successful branch grab. If I play the rune that moves my spirit forward, do I have to do another branch grab roll?

If I fail a branch grab roll and land on a tile that moves my spirit, I resolve the tile, do I do another grab roll or is the turn over if another tile is not activated?

If I land on the Whirlwind tile and my piece is switched, does the new spitit owner roll the branch save grab or do I get to finish my turn? In a 2 player game does that mean after a whirlwind swap, that I then take a second turn with the new "spirit"?

Where do the tiles for the board go in the insert?

Thank you in advance for any insight you can provide.
 
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Cheri Kannarr
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My teen son and I played a half dozen games in succession. Found it to be a fun little game with quick setup & game play, but I have to agree with others that the rules are in need of clarification & revision. We are generally comfortable with both light family games & more heavyweight games, so I expected this game to be quite simple to understand without much ambiguity. I’m hoping Thomas or someone else from Flyos will jump back in & respond with more clarification for their intention! I don’t mind house ruling when necessary, but we had a situation that required discussion & interpretation in every game we played. For a light, 10 minute game, this was a surprise & will definitely impact family/casual gamers who don’t want to be forced to interpret rules! Luckily we’re both rules lawyers & enjoyed the debate, so we had a lot of fun. But I still want to know the “right” interpretations!

Most questions were in regard to grabbing & when a new grab roll is necessary after rune card and/tile effects. Based on Flyos’s earlier reply, if a player failed the grab roll & moved back onto a tile causing more movement, we played that another grab roll was not needed wherever the spirit finally came to rest (“wind gods have mercy”). Not entirely sure this is correct, however. Thematically, it makes more sense that the spirit needs to eventually grab hold somewhere. And what about movement caused by rune cards? Specific examples from our play:

Player 1 has succeeded in their grab roll but another player then plays a Shift rune card forcing Player 1’s spirit to move, does Player 1 need to make another grab roll? Thematically, it would make sense to need to grab hold but I cannot find this addressed at all in the rules. (this is basically the same as crystal’s first question except the rune card is used on another player’s spirit)

Player 2 completes their turn. Before rolling, Player 1 plays Switch rune, followed by Shift rune which moves their spirit onto a Zephyr tile, which moves them forward onto the Sacred Flower. Does Player 1 need to make a grab roll? What # would they need to roll since all movement was from rune cards & tiles? Any # except an X? Or did they successfully sneak in a guaranteed victory (this is how we played & the teenager was very pleased with his trickiness).


Other questions specifically with Whirlwind– we have been playing as soundbuoy & swapping the colored disks, not moving or replacing spirits but changing who is controlling each spirit. Turn sequence continued in the same order (so in a two player game, the same spirit – the spirit on the Whirlwind tile. -- in effect moves twice).

However, this brought its own set of questions.
We had a situation where Player 1 landed on Spider Web tile, losing “your” next turn. Player 2 then lands on Whirlwind tile, so Player 1 & 2 are now playing the other’s spirits. Does Spider Web impact the PLAYER (in which case player 2 will now move again but move the spirit sitting on the Spider Web)? The word “your” on the Spider Web tile seems to refer to the player, making this perhaps the desired effect. Or does Spider Web impact the SPIRIT (so player 2’s turn is now over & player 1 gets to move the spirit on Whirlwind)? Thematically, this second scenario made more sense to us (the spirit in the web can’t move again yet, no matter who’s controlling it) so we played it this way. But Spider Web could be made less ambiguous by replacing the word “your” with “spirit” or “player”.

We didn’t even discuss it, just assumed that Whirlwind would not take effect until AFTER a successful grab roll. But crystal’s question makes me reconsider this. The rules specifically state that action tiles apply “immediately”. So I would ask for clarification on this – who rolls the grab roll? Or is there no grab roll at this point because the spirit on Whirlwind immediately moves off, but is moved by another player? When exactly does Whirlwind take effect?


And finally a question on Bouncy Mush.
We played that the spirit immediately moves forward again, the same movement originally rolled, not that the player rolls & then moves again based on that second roll. Is this correct? “Replay” doesn’t say reroll, but it’s not defined anywhere so definitely wide open for interpretation.

What happens if a missed grab roll moves a spirit backward onto Bouncy Mush? We played that the spirit moves backward a second time.


Thank you! I do think that KiWeTin has the potential to be a sweet little lightweight game & hope a version 2 of the rules adds some clarity.

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Cheri Kannarr
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A Whirlwind clarification was posted by Flyos in the Kickstarter comments. No grab roll is needed when a spirit lands on Whirlwind. That definitely should be noted in the rules!

Exact quote, "No need to grab after hitting a whirlwind, BTW"
 
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Thomas Filippi
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Hey guys, here are the updated version of the rules
I hope you like it

FRENCH : www.kiwetin.com/Kiwetin_Regles_v2.pdf
ENGLISH : www.kiwetin.com/Kiwetin_Rules_v2.pdf

Best regards
Thomas
Flyos Games
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Frederic Beaulieu
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You made a mistake in the english v2 rules. But not in the french rules.

In action tiles specifications. #2 should be ROTTEN branch and not STRONG branch.

EDIT : It's the rulebook in the Files section of BGG that have this mistake. The link provided in the forum don't
 
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Pepin Labulle
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The links are not valid anymore, but I found new links on their Facebook pages:
FRENCH : www.kiwetin.com/Kiwetin_Regles.pdf
ENGLISH : www.kiwetin.com/Kiwetin_Rules.pdf
 
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