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Subject: Finished Act I - Loved it, but mixed feelings rss

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Shaun Varsos
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So this really isn't a bash of the game and I want to stress that just in case it comes of that way. I adore the game. Like I'm honestly a little stunned how much I like it. We got in 6 plays in 2 weeks which is a lot for my group on a game like that (I say group but it was 2 of us, the point still stands). The ending was really bittersweet though.

So our progression path was 1-2-3-4-5-6 and we had no failures/repeats. When we finished 6 is when the disappointment kicked in. I looked in the book, avoiding spoilers though, to see how many quests were in the book. As most of you I'm sure know there's 7. As such I was caught off guard to find out, if playing the campaign mode, that you can't do both quest 6 and 7 - effectively reducing the content I thought I had to play by a whole mission. Now I'm critically aware that I could of course replay the campaign and get to Quest 7 by taking the alternate path. While I want to do that because I'm excited about Quest 7, I'm not exactly thrilled to play those missions again right away just to do so and I don't particularly care for the standalone mission mode.

To me the highlight of the game is really the Book of Secrets and the progression as you play through the missions, developing not only your characters and abilities but the story by how they react to things. Some of the most fun moments are the brief discussions about the options, guessing what might happen when you make your decisions. When the mystery is gone some of the sheen wears off, not all of it but definitely some of it. This issue would be lessened if more than your decisions in the 5th mission impacted whether or not you played the 6th or 7th missions, i.e. if there were other branches to the branching story path.

Now when the rest of the content gets here I'd probably feel a little differently; a) because we could continue the campaign b) because it actually does increase the replayability of the missions because you can sub out enemies (which we don't even have the cards to do at the moment despite having the figures).

I know that's a lot of complaining for a game I claim to love, but it's really only because of the quality of the game and the phenomenal job the team's done that I'm itching for content. It's like I got the first few chapters of A Game of Thrones and then someone told me the rest of the chapters would be out eventually. (Actually George R.R. Martin did that with A Dance with Dragons and it was abysmal - not the book but the wait - but who am I telling). If the game was bad the wait for content wouldn't be a problem but the game has SO LITTLE content in the core box if you aren't just going to play the same stuff over and over, devoid of twists and turns. I honestly think that the lack of content is tragic (for me) because with more content I'd maybe rate this over Gloomhaven. I certainly don't expect every game to have a Gloomhaven level of content, but I hate the feeling of getting my feet wet and not being able to swim.

Hats off to the developers though because I wouldn't be even a fraction as invested if it wasn't this good. It was by far one of the best campaign experiences that I've had outside of the aforementioned complaints.

Happy to answer any questions about the campaign too if there are any. Just make sure to be spoiler conscious.
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David desJardins
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This makes sense to me. I like the game but a bit disappointed by realizing how little gameplay there is, certainly compared to something like Gloomhaven. With all of the loot and character types, a random campaign generator would add an enormous amount of replay.
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Skaak
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Quest editor should be coming out here soon, which might give the core set content some legs, as well.

Additionally, despite only delivering cardboard Wave 2 is going to be a doozy, I suspect.
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Still haven't played my copy but I'm a little surprised that you can complete the campaign so quickly. GD had 12 missions and the campaign made you go through 10 minimum I believe. Not to mention the mission or 2 that wouldn't allow you to proceed withouy successfully completing it.

The comparison to Gloomhaven is an easy one to make because it is the poster boy for content in a box, however keep in mind, up here in Canada at least, Gloomhaven retail is $140 while S&S is $85.

Thst being said hopefully the quest editor will allow the more creative of us to provide much more mission content throughout the years.
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Simone Romano
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I'm very glad you like your game experience

About the length of the Campaign... you have played only 6 of the 21/22 total Quests (remove 4 if you don't have Vastaryous)... all aspects of the game grow together with the campaign, so the story, the power of your heroes, the difficulty, everything will rise, quest after quest, till the final battle... Imagine we have created 2 Versions of Vastaryous (Whelp and Adult) cause we know that beat her can be too hard for some players devil

I'm really glad to read stories like your because this means we have achieved our objective... I love GD saga but I know really few people who have killed the Alien Queen, cause the game is too hard... I think S&S represents the right mix of difficulty and playability instead

Thanks you and I really hope you will continue your journey with the Wave 2... otherwise your heroes will remain bounded to the Claudius'Spell forever sauron
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David Russell
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Simone

Now I know i am getting waaay ahead of myself and the retail schedule, but after Act II and Vastaryous - will there be another storyline expansion coming at all, or this is the full run and project over.

Yes i am being greedy ...

I agree the quest editor will change everything - once some clever fans get to grips with that i suspect we will see at least a few really good campaigns being written if Descent and other are anything to go by. I may even have a go myself given my Warhammer Quest Adventure Card game scenarios have been quite popular.

http://crusadersgolf.co.uk/board-games/warhammer-quest-adven...
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Simone Romano
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crusaderlord wrote:
Simone

Now I know i am getting waaay ahead of myself and the retail schedule, but after Act II and Vastaryous - will there be another storyline expansion coming at all, or this is the full run and project over.



The main plot of this adventure ends with the ACT II, Vastaryous is already a Sidequest BUT if the game will continue to obtain this great comments, you can be sure that we will continue to write legendary S&S stories, I really would like to continue because there are so many ideas to apply to our game system
That's all for now.

Thanks!
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João Neto
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Simone Romano wrote:
crusaderlord wrote:
Simone

Now I know i am getting waaay ahead of myself and the retail schedule, but after Act II and Vastaryous - will there be another storyline expansion coming at all, or this is the full run and project over.



The main plot of this adventure ends with the ACT II, Vastaryous is already a Sidequest BUT if the game will continue to obtain this great comments, you can be sure that we will continue to write legendary S&S stories, I really would like to continue because there are so many ideas to apply to our game system
That's all for now.

Thanks!


Hi, Simone !

My humble opinion is: the game is truly great as it is right now. You guys did a amazing job. The cons most people talk about is the lenght of the campaign, because we are so eager to play more !

My group is anxious to play (finally, is coming laugh ) and we are choosing the heroes for future runs (and we didn't start the first yet...).

So please don't tell us that the project is over. It has the potential to be as great as or even better than other dungeon crawlers as Descent 2nd. Indeed, the coop play is better than the Descent version (Road to Legend), in my opinion.

But you could start to think in differents aproaches to other expansions, like:

* a random dungeon generator -> an app to create random dungeons (you could include the story and texts on the app);

* book expansions -> with brand new whole campaigns that use the components we already have;

* heroes and monsters expansions -> with new characters, monsters and items, artifacts, etc.

Basically, these kind of expansions appeared to Descent 2nd, and were really welcome, adding variety and replay to the core game. I think they fit nicely to Sword & Sorcery. Of course, these are my suggestions, you could add the Gremlins touch to the recipe.
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Daniel Davis
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Theres no dungeon crawl / dive mode? Only official story campaign?

Ugh.

Might have a Kickstarter up for sale soon.
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D_Davis wrote:
Theres no dungeon crawl / dive mode? Only official story campaign?

Ugh.

Might have a Kickstarter up for sale soon.

It sounds like you really research your KS purchases!

That being said, many times has the random dungeon generator been asked for and Simone said it would be something they might look into but at a later date. Of course, Simone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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MM
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Preach379 wrote:
+1 million on having an official way to randomize dungeons


Not in the current plans - see Simone's post here.
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Andrew Sekela
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I second all of the OP's comments. (Well put by the way.) S&S has rocketed to #3 on my list of favorite games. I decided to start a 2nd party since I longed for more after finishing the 1st campaign. I am on quest #3 with party #2 and my enjoyment has not diminished in the least. Perhaps my favorite thing about the game are the heroes. I had a hard time deciding on both parties; there are so many great choices. The heroes are all interesting and play differently from one another.

I also find it interesting to compare the progress of the 2nd party to that of the 1st one.
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Shaun Varsos
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Simone Romano wrote:
I'm very glad you like your game experience

About the length of the Campaign... you have played only 6 of the 21/22 total Quests (remove 4 if you don't have Vastaryous)... all aspects of the game grow together with the campaign, so the story, the power of your heroes, the difficulty, everything will rise, quest after quest, till the final battle... Imagine we have created 2 Versions of Vastaryous (Whelp and Adult) cause we know that beat her can be too hard for some players devil

I'm really glad to read stories like your because this means we have achieved our objective... I love GD saga but I know really few people who have killed the Alien Queen, cause the game is too hard... I think S&S represents the right mix of difficulty and playability instead

Thanks you and I really hope you will continue your journey with the Wave 2... otherwise your heroes will remain bounded to the Claudius'Spell forever sauron


I can't wait to get to that. Honestly it was one of the best experiences I've had so far and I'm desperate for more. I can guarantee that we will go for the Adult version of Vastaryous and look forward to the conquest. Thank you for the reply too!
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Daniel Davis
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The best dungeon crawls have campaigns as an option.

When campaigns are forced, it introduces a forced end point to the game.

I'm still playing Warhammer Quest. Why? Because it goes on forever.

I'll still be playing Shadows of Brimstone for decades. Why? Because it goes on forever.

The stories we create in our heads are far better than any story a game producer can tell.

Without random dungeons, Sword & Sorcery will be played, and then sold. Or maybe I'll just use the minis for more monsters in WHQ.
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Jeff K
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This is possibly a good news/bad news kind of thing. It does create a game content concern, although I expect that to be partly addressed by the quest editor and fan creation.

OTOH, the good news would be if the Gremlins spend a significant amount of time on new quest books. I would really welcome a game system that does not rely on big expansion boxes full of plastic, but instead focuses on written modules utilizing existing content, perhaps with a few minis of new enemies for that quest, for a much more reasonable price point.

That would be very welcome, indeed.
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Preach379 wrote:
The being said I don't really understand if if the campaign editor is going to be added onto the current app at some point in the future or if it will be its own separate thing?


It's a separate program for Windows/Mac OS, not a mobile app.
 
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Didier Renard
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Here is another vote for an app that could generate random dungeons. This would definitely add to replayability and longevity of this game.
 
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Jon Olsén
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I do not very much care for random dungeons; it can be fun but not very important IMO.
But, I do hope the Gremlins can create som new campaigns/missions that will be cheap/free add-ons, don't need a lot of new stuff, just some new stories to play.
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Malama wrote:
But, I do hope the Gremlins can create som new campaigns/missions that will be cheap/free add-ons, don't need a lot of new stuff, just some new stories to play.


But good campaigns/missions cost real money to produce, edit, playtest, etc. A business model that produces "cheap/free" product isn't sustainable. I'd like to see the team continue the product in an official way, but I suspect to pay a premium for it.
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Scott Cantor
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Preach379 wrote:

Yep I'd definitely pay for something like that, probably about two bucks apiece for digital versions of new official adventures or a bit more than that for printed.


I'd pay more than that, and I don't think it would be close to profitable at that price point given the size of the audience.

To be fair I have no earthly idea how some of these apps make money at all, but with board games people seem to have rough ideas at the size of the print runs, and they're not very large.
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Matt Drake
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I understand why some people want random dungeons, but to me, that would utterly defeat the purpose. The thing that sets S&S apart, at least to me, is that fact that it's not just a tactical exercise. It's a story. There are twists and frustrations, complications and surprises. You think you've got one thing but NOPE NEW THING! It's the story that brings me back to the table.

Honestly, I believe other games have done the tactical dungeon raid better. But I haven't seen one do a better story (still haven't played Gloomhaven). If I were going to play a dungeon game that doesn't have a story attached to it, I would just play Super Dungeon Explore.

That's why I'm so keen for the quest editor. I intend to write a campaign, especially once we have the expansion material with more enemies. I feel certain I am not alone. If Ares opens it up to let the community create content, Sword & Sorcery could grow well beyond what they can support on their own.
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Frank Franco
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What Matt said * 100.
What sets S&S apart is that it is the most "detailed" Dungeoncrawl I have played. Everything in it supports narrative. Other games would have streamlined the monsters so they are easier / faster to play but the designers kept them complex so that they feel and play out far more like their 'role' is meant to be. Raiders here feel more like raiders then they do in descent.
This level of detail demands storylines. Random dungeons wont cut it.
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David desJardins
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I find the story fairly uninteresting so far. Random dungeons would be just as good for me. Of course YMMV.
 
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Christopher
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No co-op boardgame is ever going to deliver a story that comes close to the richness of a pen and paper RPG (let alone a great novel or movie), that's just not the strength of boardgames so why focus on that as a key criteria for a dungeon crawl boardgame?

For me the key criteria for a dungeon crawl boardgame are exploration, loot, and fun tactical combat. Those are things a boardgame can do well. If I want an interesting story there's far better places to get one.
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Dieter van Loon
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As someone who will probably never play a pen & paper RPG, I like that my dungeon crawl games contain some story to immerse myself in (even if the stories themselves could be better).

I also like to have a specific objective which needs to be accomplished or at least a reason why I am in that particular place risking my life instead of "enter, get loot, exit".

Having both options available (a narative (expandable/community-driven) campaign next to random dungeons) would be the perfect solution of course to satisfy everyone. cool

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