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1889: History of Shikoku Railways» Forums » Rules

Subject: Dougo Railway Clarification rss

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Brent Celmins
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"Owning player may exchange this private company for a 10% share of Iyo Railway from the Initial Offering".

The rules don't specify that using this power closes the company like the M&H in 1830, so some clarifying questions:

1. Does this mean that, upon the exchange, Dougo ownership transfers to Iyo and generates revenue for Iyo until the privates closes?

1a. If so, what happens if the Iyo isn't floated yet and somebody wants to do the exchange?

2. Since this is not a private sale, but an execution of the ability of the private, does that mean it the ability may be executed before the first 3T is purchased?
 
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Tim Koppang
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SWxNW wrote:
1. Does this mean that, upon the exchange, Dougo ownership transfers to Iyo and generates revenue for Iyo until the privates closes?

No. At least the way I've always played, the Dougo closes upon exchange.

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1a. If so, what happens if the Iyo isn't floated yet and somebody wants to do the exchange?

See above.

Quote:
2. Since this is not a private sale, but an execution of the ability of the private, does that mean it the ability may be executed before the first 3T is purchased?

Yes.
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Brent Celmins
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tckoppang wrote:
No. At least the way I've always played, the Dougo closes upon exchange.


Is this because you see it as a direct corollary to the M&H?

No difference inferred from the fact that the Dougo-exchanged share must be from the initial offer, but M&H can be from the bank pool or the initial offer?

I have a hard time imagining someone who hasn't played 1830 interpreting the rule that the Dougo closes upon exchange, is all.

Though the problem of exchanging Dougo for an unfloated Iyo does call into question how an alternative interpretation would be executed. I suppose it's easier to just close the company upon exchange.

but still...
 
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Brent Celmins
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I just realized that since 1889 is not an incremental capitalization game, giving the Dougo to the Iyo as compensation for taking a share out of the Initial Offer doesn't make a lot of sense, mechanically-speaking.

Still not thrilled with the explanation in the rule book, but I think I'm satisfied in interpreting the rule that the Dougo closes upon exchange based on the context of 18xx systems.
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Tim Koppang
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SWxNW wrote:
Is this because you see it as a direct corollary to the M&H?

Yes, but also because of the word "exchange." Shares in the initial offering aren't owned by the corresponding corporation in 1889. So to exchange the Dougo means you're giving it up to the same no-man's land of non-ownership -- effectively taking it out of the game. Combine that with the fact that 1889 is supposed to be a corollary to 1830 by design, and I think the rule is fairly clear.

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No difference inferred from the fact that the Dougo-exchanged share must be from the initial offer, but M&H can be from the bank pool or the initial offer?

Why would that make a difference?

Quote:
I have a hard time imagining someone who hasn't played 1830 interpreting the rule that the Dougo closes upon exchange, is all.

Fair, but there are other rules that sort of depend on a player knowing 1830. In general, I don't think 1889 is the best set of standalone rules.

Quote:
Though the problem of exchanging Dougo for an unfloated Iyo does call into question how an alternative interpretation would be executed. I suppose it's easier to just close the company upon exchange.

Exactly! :-)
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Brent Celmins
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tckoppang wrote:
[q="SWxNW"]
In general, I don't think 1889 is the best set of standalone rules.


Ain't that the truth!
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Brent Celmins
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tckoppang wrote:
[q="SWxNW"]

Quote:
No difference inferred from the fact that the Dougo-exchanged share must be from the initial offer, but M&H can be from the bank pool or the initial offer?

Why would that make a difference?


I feel I've resolved this to my satisfaction but in the interest of exploring why this would make a difference (if nothing else, these discussions help me parse the subtle differences among games):

If you were permitted to exchange Dougo for a share of Iyo from the bank pool rather than the initial offer, I think you could make a mechanical interpretation argument that Dougo should be taken over by Iyo since dividends in the bank pool are paid out to the company itself.

Naturally, this is expressly prohibited by the ability written on the Dougo, but I think theoretically would make the rule much more difficult to pin down if you could exchange it for a share in the initial offer OR the bank pool, especially since M&H specifically says the exchange closes the company.
 
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Roel van der Hoorn
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SWxNW wrote:
If you were permitted to exchange Dougo for a share of Iyo from the bank pool rather than the initial offer, I think you could make a mechanical interpretation argument that Dougo should be taken over by Iyo since dividends in the bank pool are paid out to the company itself.

If you buy a share from the bank pool, the money doesn't go to the company either, so I don't see a reason exchanging one should give the private to the company.
 
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James Moore

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SWxNW wrote:
tckoppang wrote:
[q="SWxNW"]

Quote:
No difference inferred from the fact that the Dougo-exchanged share must be from the initial offer, but M&H can be from the bank pool or the initial offer?

Why would that make a difference?


If you were permitted to exchange Dougo for a share of Iyo from the bank pool rather than the initial offer, I think you could make a mechanical interpretation argument that Dougo should be taken over by Iyo since dividends in the bank pool are paid out to the company itself.



I think the mechanical interpretation would be that the private sitting in the bank pool would just pay to the bank pool; just because it has an ability to be traded for a share of company X doesn't mean it's part of company X. And since there's no mechanism to buy privates out of the bank pool, it'd just sit there taking actions that have no net effect on the game. Might as well toss it in the box instead.

Similar for the initial exchange; you could physically exchange the pieces of paper, leaving the private on the stack of the other IPO shares. It'd just sit there until it's closed by rust, collecting a payout that immediately returns to the bank, since there's no rule allowing its purchase.

(I suppose there's a very strange edge case where you could argue that those payouts are real, and could break the bank before they're returned. I suspect most 18xx players would be happy to have bragging rights to be in a game that actually ended that way.)
 
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