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Subject: [WIP] Miner 49r - Dice game rss

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Joseph Propati
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My entry Thread for my game Miner 49r - Dice Game - Component Ready

Designed for the 2017 Solitaire Print and Play Contest.

Game Summary:
Miner 49r - Dice Game is a grid movement/dice placement game where you are a miner searching for GOLD, GEMS, JADE and DIAMONDS. You start at level 1 and as you search each level you progress down to the next level of the cavern. You will be digging within a hex grid using directional movement dice. You have TNT that you can use to blow up granite sections that block your path. Each level has an entrance to the next lower depth and as you dig your way through the cavern you must decide whether you can grab the precious minerals and make it to the exit or just get to the exit before you get stuck!

You get three movement roll actions to determine just how far you can get through the cavern. With each roll you also have dice combos that help you move with special actions.

You only have a limited amount of movement dice to use and if you take too long searching for minerals you might not make it to the next level down.

In this game you are trying to find as many precious minerals as you can gather AND see how deep you can dig. It's a solo game with you trying to obtain the highest score possible.






Components:
Miner 49r - Dice game uses a game board, a score card, a pencil, a cup and dice!

Play Time: 30 minutes or less

I'd like to enter my game in:
Best Game by a Returning Designer Category
Best Easy to Build Category
Best Original Artwork
Best Game Playable on an Airline Seat Tray
Best Rule Book
Best Regular PNP Build
Best Puzzle/Abstract
Most Innovative Mechanic Category.
Best Greyscale/Low Ink Printed Game Category


Download link:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qo0d2nk906pcs9u/AADj96DiWPIjq5yV4...






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Chris Hansen
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If given the option, I would prefer to play with the green pieces, please.
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Welcome! I like the theme and the artwork is very nice!
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Jim McMahon
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Lookee what he can do! He wants a job!
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Looks neat. First thing I thought of from the name though was this great classic computer/video game:
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Joseph Propati
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So currently there is no element in the game that can kill you, you can only lose by not making it to the level down space.

Would you guys want this type of element in the game or just have it a somewhat puzzle type game that you have to gain as much treasure as you can and continue working your way down each level as far as you can before you end up making the wrong decisions and getting stuck!
 
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Kelly
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Looks really interesting! Thematically, I would expect the start to be the top of the hex grid rather than the bottom if I was digging down.

Including something else that could kill you would add another layer of complexity - if that was decided purely on the dice roll though it would probably feel bad and take away from that puzzle element.
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Joseph Propati
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Kelzky wrote:
Looks really interesting! Thematically, I would expect the start to be the top of the hex grid rather than the bottom if I was digging down.

Including something else that could kill you would add another layer of complexity - if that was decided purely on the dice roll though it would probably feel bad and take away from that puzzle element.


The grid you see on the game board is the entire level you are searching in. within this grid is a down to lever level entrance. You really only start from the bottom at the beginning of the game and then each down level exit will be randomly placed within the grid area.

I think I'll have player test without a kill element and see how they like it.
 
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Kelly
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kingspud wrote:
Kelzky wrote:
Looks really interesting! Thematically, I would expect the start to be the top of the hex grid rather than the bottom if I was digging down.

Including something else that could kill you would add another layer of complexity - if that was decided purely on the dice roll though it would probably feel bad and take away from that puzzle element.


The grid you see on the game board is the entire level you are searching in. within this grid is a down to lever level entrance. You really only start from the bottom at the beginning of the game and then each down level exit will be randomly placed within the grid area.

I think I'll have player test without a kill element and see how they like it.


Whoops my bad - I was assuming it was a single sheet game blush. Will you have a low ink version? I need to replace my printer cartridges but we're a bit tight on money this month which is a problem for this contest
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Joseph Propati
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Files are available through the WIP OP page
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Joseph Propati
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It is a single sheet game where you create the next level on the game board each time you go down a new level.
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Joseph Propati
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I've added LOW INK version of the PDF files.
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Kelly
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kingspud wrote:
It is a single sheet game where you create the next level on the game board each time you go down a new level.


blushblushblush I'm going to stop making assumptions haha!

Certainly looks interesting on a brief scan of the rules - I've got some hex grid paper that I can draw out the map on, will try to give it a go this evening after the kids have gone to bed ^_^

EDIT: Thank you for low ink, should be able to print it now
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Joseph Propati
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Kelzky wrote:
kingspud wrote:
It is a single sheet game where you create the next level on the game board each time you go down a new level.


blushblushblush I'm going to stop making assumptions haha!

Certainly looks interesting on a brief scan of the rules - I've got some hex grid paper that I can draw out the map on, will try to give it a go this evening after the kids have gone to bed ^_^

EDIT: Thank you for low ink, should be able to print it now


Thanks, I'd love to hear your thoughts!
 
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Guilhem Bedos
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This one intrigues me: subscribed to the thread and components downloaded.
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Kelly
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Okay so I gave this a quick go this evening as I have to be up early - turned out to be really quick and you'll soon see why...

During set up I only rolled 3 granite which was a good start... then I rolled for the placement of the orange exit and lo and behold it was on top of a granite! Also started right below another which could have been awkward. But with a bonus dig dice pulled from the bag in the beginning I thought it might be alright.

Here is my starting mine:



First roll gave me enough to get close to a vein of gold by changing a 3 to a 4 and a 5 to a 1 but I ended up only being able to use 3 of the dice.



I rolled 3 3's and 2 1's on this roll so managed to change so I used all the 1's to get up to the gems - but I still hadn't rolled 4 of a kind to get me out! All I could do was hope...



Nooooooooooooo! cry



So ended rather quickly my descent in to the mine - scoring a mere 20 points

More notes and questions:

It wasn't completely clear in the rules whether the number I rolled on the yellow dice for starting was meant to be in the corresponding position on the grid. Also later on in the example image for movement the dice in the start area was white rather than yellow which made me unsure of whether my first movement dice had to replace the yellow one on the grid.

Points 6. - 8. in the rules could possibly be shortened by replacing 7. and 8. with the phrase "repeat step 6. twice more"

I assumed that you can't use one special ability to "achieve" another so if I roll 1, 1, 4, 4, 5 I can't then use a 4 to make a 1 to make a 3 of a kind?

I find the text on the special action card a little hard to read in any colour, if the text was not bold it might be a bit clearer?

I used the set up green dice to count my rounds, also for people with less dice could counters/discs be considered for granite and exit placement?

I never got to use one but when a special ability says "re-roll 5 dice" is that after the ability is used? So you get two lots of movement ... hang on I think I've realised something by typing this out. Do you use the dice for the ability INSTEAD of the movement?

... I don't think this affected my play at all though.

I think there's definitely promise here - I'll have to have a few more goes to see if I can get further and get a real feel for the game. Definitely seems like it will be fun! If I don't roll granite on the exit again!
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Joseph Propati
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First, big thanks for testing the game, this is going to help a lot!

1. I assumed that you can't use one special ability to "achieve" another so if I roll 1, 1, 4, 4, 5 I can't then use a 4 to make a 1 to make a 3 of a kind?

A: This is an interesting question because initially I was thinking the rules would be all combos can only be used once from the initial roll. So if you roll two doubles then you wouldn't be able to make one three of a kind but I really like this idea and I say go for it!! The only thing is it really needs to be tested because you could really go crazy with the combos but this could end up making the game even more strategic and fun! Please test away this new idea!!!

2. Points 6. - 8. in the rules could possibly be shortened by replacing 7. and 8. with the phrase "repeat step 6. twice more"

A: I agree and will update this! Thanks

3. I find the text on the special action card a little hard to read in any colour, if the text was not bold it might be a bit clearer?

A: I will fix this! Thanks

4. I used the set up green dice to count my rounds, also for people with less dice could counters/discs be considered for granite and exit placement?

A: I initially created this game for the GenCan't Roll and write competition so it was mandatory that only dice be used but for this contest I will update with cubes as you requested. I'll update the rules to cover this!

5. I never got to use one but when a special ability says "re-roll 5 dice" is that after the ability is used? So you get two lots of movement ... hang on I think I've realized something by typing this out. Do you use the dice for the ability INSTEAD of the movement?

A: Yes and no, I'll explain each combo:

1. Doubles - of the two dice you can change one of the dice faces and then you take your movement action.

2. Three of a kind - Similar to double in that you change the face of two of the three dice and then take your movement action.

3. Straight - You get to use any three of the five dice for movement and then you reroll all five dice and you get to take another full movement action. If you roll combos again they count just like a normal movement action!

4. Full House - You basically get to jump across a gap which equals two hexes in any direction. Then you reroll all five dice and take another movement action!

5. Four of a kind - You find [2] sticks of dynamite and put them into your inventory; these can be used at any time but only when you are next to a granite block. You then reroll all five dice and take another movement action!
6. Five of a kind - Similar to double in that you change the face of four of the five dice and then take your movement action but you also get to reroll all five dice and take another movement action!
I'm adding these explanations to the rules!
6. You have a yellow and green die that are not placed in the cup and are only used for determining the location for the dice you draw from the cup or are required to place on the grid. You roll the YELLOW die and it determines the hex count to the right and the GREEN die represent the hex count down. You wouldn't be placing these dice on any hex space. The yellow die you placed in the start zone should of actually been one of the white dice.
 
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Mason Rouser
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jimmcmahon wrote:
Looks neat. First thing I thought of from the name though was this great classic computer/video game:


That's where my mind immediately went with excitement.
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Joseph Propati
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By the way, the doubles example in the rule book is wrong, I'm fixing it.

I'll give a longer turn play through example in the next rules update.
 
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Joseph Propati
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Major update to the rules thanks to Kelly!! I took a lot of what you suggested and revamped the game a lot!

I updated the rules with all new information and a full turn play through example to get you started!

Have fun!

One of the big rules updates regarding movement is you can back track through dice that are already on the game board. So during each of the three rounds that are used for movement, any dice on the map grid can be moved through and you can start at any hex that is adjacent to an existing die! This will help with your movement when trying to get to the level down entrance!

I also added a rounds tracker so you can keep track of what round you are on when rolling dice and placing dice on the game board.
 
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Kelly
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Round 2! Quite the opposite to last game...



What looked like an easy start sooner turned in to a difficult choice - risk the gems? Or leg it to the exit?



I chose to go for the exit and this was the correct choice as the round 3 roll would have seen another swift end to the game.

I had a couple of levels that looked like they might be a bit tricky when the granite was placed.




But I breezed through them quite easily - perhaps too easily? When I reached the end of level 5 I felt like the game had played it's course and I would have been happy to tally up my points there... but I played just one more level before bed and got a super lucrative mine!



I ended here with a score of 158! But could have carried on and on to who knows what level?!

-----------
More notes and questions!

1. If you roll granite twice on the same spot do you re roll it? AND If you roll placement of the exit to the level on the same hex as the entrance do you re roll it? Both of these scenarios happened on the set up of level 6 in the mine.

2. In the rules the word "turn" is used but isn't really defined - I worked it out to mean the same as a "level" - this is just an inconsistency though.

3. The first example movement image is wrong I think - shouldn't the "1" go to the left and up hex above the "2"?

4. I'm still confused about the yellow die being replaced at the start. As the dice usually represent the hex you're in and not the one you will be going in to if that makes sense? It shouldn't matter which white die you use to replace it as the dice placed afterwards will dictate the position.

5. On resetting the board for the next level it asks you to put the White dice back in the cup so I think it would be reasonable to mark the entrance with a pencil marking or a cube - also does movement start on this hex or the next hex where you would place a dice?

6. In the full example given it mentions about backtracking for free movement but I can't see anything about this in the main body of rules? (Unless I'm being daft or just very tired)

7. I think it would be useful to have a a quick set-up reference card for when you reset for the next level - although it's not a problem just to look back at the rules.

Generally I found it too easy, starting with 6 dynamite is very powerful (I used half of it in this game) but I still didn't roll a 4 of-a-kind to get any more. I also had the extra movement die on 4/6 levels, also for half the levels I didn't even need the 3rd round of movement I had collected everything and made it to the exit on 2 rolls. 2 of those occasions were due to switching a double to show another number that made a "straight" so I used 3 die then had an extra "free movement"

This is why I ended the game early as I felt it had played it's course.
I do have some suggestions for various things like the granite, dynamite and the extra movement die but I know that some designers don't necessarily want ideas for their games so will wait and see what you think of the feedback

I did enjoy it, I don't think it felt too luck based despite being a heavy dice roller. If it was more challenging and had more difficult decisions then I feel like I'd enjoy it even more. It's also quite possible I just had an easy run of levels
 
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Joseph Propati
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Hi Kelly,

Here are your questions and my answers:

1. If you roll granite twice on the same spot do you re roll it? AND If you roll placement of the exit to the level on the same hex as the entrance do you re roll it? Both of these scenarios happened on the set up of level 6 in the mine.

A: No, if rolling for the granite locations, any that land on an existing hex are rerolled. No, you must reroll so the exit is on a different hex then the start hex. This bring up a question for you: Would it just be better to always start the next level in the start zone as normal? It seems it would be a lot easier to setup each new level exactly with the same process.

2. In the rules the word "turn" is used but isn't really defined - I worked it out to mean the same as a "level" - this is just an inconsistency though.

A: A TURN represent the time you spend on one level. So a TURN is the start of the level till you reach the entrance to the level down then you start a new TURN. Within a TURN are the setup of the mine and the three ROUNDS of movement.

3. The first example movement image is wrong I think - shouldn't the "1" go to the left and up hex above the "2"?

A: Correct, I'm fixing this in the next update!

4. I'm still confused about the yellow die being replaced at the start. As the dice usually represent the hex you're in and not the one you will be going in to if that makes sense? It shouldn't matter which white die you use to replace it as the dice placed afterwards will dictate the position.

A: Don't worry about this, I'm replacing this mechanic with a WHITE cube. This will now be reference in the rule book. Actually with regard to the matter of which white die is in the hex when you start, it does matter because when you replace the now "white cube" with a white die, this die dictate the direction you will be traveling in! You wouldn't put any die here because this die is what start you on your way! I hope this makes sense.

5. On resetting the board for the next level it asks you to put the White dice back in the cup so I think it would be reasonable to mark the entrance with a pencil marking or a cube - also does movement start on this hex or the next hex where you would place a dice?

A: This statement is meant to cover the issue if you ended up receiving an extra white die during the draw process. This extra die is what would go back in the cup, not any of your initial 5 white dice. You will now be putting a white cube on the board to mark where you start and where you end each turn. Movement starts ON that hex just like when you have a die that starts your direction in the START zone hex.

6. In the full example given it mentions about backtracking for free movement but I can't see anything about this in the main body of rules? (Unless I'm being daft or just very tired)

A: I've added this section to the rules. I have a feeling that this is what made the game much easier to reach each element and exit the level before you ran out of rounds; correct? If so, I may have to change the round to 2 instead of 3 to see just how much harder it is to complete a level. This must be tested!

7. I think it would be useful to have a quick set-up reference card for when you reset for the next level - although it's not a problem just to look back at the rules.

A: I'll put one of these together and add it to the reference card sheet.

Generally I found it too easy, starting with 6 dynamite is very powerful (I used half of it in this game) but I still didn't roll a 4 of-a-kind to get any more. I also had the extra movement die on 4/6 levels, also for half the levels I didn't even need the 3rd round of movement I had collected everything and made it to the exit on 2 rolls. 2 of those occasions were due to switching a double to show another number that made a "straight" so I used 3 die then had an extra "free movement"

A: I've changed this so you start with 3 dynamite. I think this is what I was going to initially start the game with but for some reason I use 6 instead. I think I will have to add the rules that the extra die is not included when you roll the initial 5 dice to see what your combo is. You will now roll the 5 dice and check your combo, then decide on what you want to do with the combo and after your are done with the combo you get to roll the extra die and see what movement it gives you. You wont be able to change the face of this die! I think this will help add to the difficulty of the movement phase.

This is why I ended the game early as I felt it had played it's course.
I do have some suggestions for various things like the granite, dynamite and the extra movement die but I know that some designers don't necessarily want ideas for their games so will wait and see what you think of the feedback

PLEASE, if you have suggestions I am totally open to them!! I'm not one of those designer that thinks his design is the best and doesn't need help. I love feedback and I want to game to be something YOU want to play and any ideas you have to make it better are always great to hear and implement! Thanks

I did enjoy it, I don't think it felt too luck based despite being a heavy dice roller. If it was more challenging and had more difficult decisions then I feel like I'd enjoy it even more. It's also quite possible I just had an easy run of levels

As for how easy it was that you got through each level I really need to have you give me a three round walk through so I can see exactly how you are playing the rules and if you are added things I didn't explain or missed things I didn't explain. I know you might be doing the combo change to create a better combo feature that may also be making things a lot easier to get great combos so this feature may have to be removed if it is making the game way to easy and boring.

I also know that adding back tracking made going through each level a lot easier because when I didn't have this in the rules each level was VERY hard get through and I almost never get all the elements.

So, I'd love to hear about one game that is written up round by round with combos, plus all your cool ideas!

Thanks again for playing!

I was also thinking about the KILL feature which you might have as one of your ideas, to make the game more challenging and also more fun!
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Joseph Propati
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Hi Kelly,

I was also thinking of a new rule for the GRANITE blocks. When you place a granite block you roll that die and the number of the die would be the number of dynamite you would need to get through the granite. This way if you started with 6 it wouldn't necessarily be too much because you get some granite hexes that show 4, 5, or 6 on the dice and you wouldn't want to spent the sticks of dynamite on these hexes unless absolutely necessary.

What do you think?

I'm going to add it in the updated rules and see how it plays out.
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Joseph Propati
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New rules update placed in dropbox Version 3!

Please check out these new rules to make sure you are playing to the latest rule set.

Thanks for playing.

UPDATE:
1. Added three wooden cubes to the component list "Orange, Blue, and White"
2. Removed the Orange die from the component list
3. Added rule that Granite blocks now have a value that is the number of dynamite needed to destroy the block and clear the path.
4. Added rule that the extra die is rolled separate and the value is not included in deciding the combo. It is rolled last and the value is the movement you get that can't be changed.
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Kelly
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This bring up a question for you: Would it just be better to always start the next level in the start zone as normal? It seems it would be a lot easier to setup each new level exactly with the same process.

I like how, thematically, the next entrance is at the last exit - feels like I'm moving through the mine. If you were to start at the "START" each time then if it were at the top I'd feel like I was digging down. But then I suppose the exit would have to be at the bottom to continue the theme.

Actually with regard to the matter of which white die is in the hex when you start, it does matter because when you replace the now "white cube" with a white die, this die dictate the direction you will be traveling in! You wouldn't put any die here because this die is what start you on your way! I hope this makes sense.

Nope... I feel like I'm being thick? cry I'm still getting confused... The way I'm trying to see it is:

If I replace the white cube with a "1" I would be travelling up+left in that hex but if I were to place a "2" next then that die would be placed up+right to the "1". But to me that second movement would be the same no matter what number the first white die is.

The other way would be that the first die tells you where to place next one, so if my second move was a "2" then the "1" would tell me to place the "2" up+left of the "1" then the next die would be placed up+right to the "2"

This is where I'm having trouble - I don't know which way round the movement is supposed to happen, you seem to be describing the latter but the example in the rules displays the former - unless I'm wrong and I need a dunce hat and go sit in the corner zombie

I've added this section to the rules. I have a feeling that this is what made the game much easier to reach each element and exit the level before you ran out of rounds; correct? If so, I may have to change the round to 2 instead of 3 to see just how much harder it is to complete a level. This must be tested!

I don't think I did that much back tracking in my play through - maybe 1 or 2 dice every other level? I feel like 2 rounds could be too hard but like you said it would need to be tested - I'll see what I can do


I've changed this so you start with 3 dynamite. I think this is what I was going to initially start the game with but for some reason I use 6 instead.

I was surprised to see you started with 6 in the v2 rules I thought 2 might be a decent number but this is before what you say below about "stronger" granite.

I think I will have to add the rules that the extra die is not included when you roll the initial 5 dice to see what your combo is. You will now roll the 5 dice and check your combo, then decide on what you want to do with the combo and after your are done with the combo you get to roll the extra die and see what movement it gives you. You wont be able to change the face of this die! I think this will help add to the difficulty of the movement phase.

This is a nice solution, I'll try to get round with playing it that way. The idea I had was that the extra movement die could only be used in one of the rounds on that level and then it was spent. This could provide a "shall I use this die to get that diamond now or should I save it in case I can't get to the exit". In this idea I would still roll the extra movement die with the rest of the dice and use it for combos.

PLEASE, if you have suggestions I am totally open to them!! I'm not one of those designer that thinks his design is the best and doesn't need help. I love feedback and I want to game to be something YOU want to play and any ideas you have to make it better are always great to hear and implement! Thanks

Ah I didn't mean to imply that! I speak from my own feelings that if there are problems in my game then I like to try to work them out myself (I'm stubborn that way ). Also many podcasts I listen to say that playtesters are meant to find problems not fix them. I guess any ideas shared is a good thing and then the designer can chose to use/ignore as they see fit ^_^

I already explained my idea for the movement die above, the idea I had about granite is that there could be a chance to "find" more minerals once it had been blown up. For example take the left over black die, roll it and then add it to the number of granite you originally had on the board:

3, 4, 5, 6: nothing
7, 8, 9: gold
10, 11: jade
12: ruby
Doubles: diamond

This was to give some possible more incentive to use excess dynamite on granite - however if you're reducing the starting dynamite then it would just be a way of getting bonus points when clearing the way.

So, I'd love to hear about one game that is written up round by round with combos, plus all your cool ideas!

Thanks again for playing!


You're welcome! What I haven't said previously is that I've always wanted to design a "Minecraft-esque" game and so this game had me quite excited! With 2 small kids both under 4 I don't get a whole lot of time but I will try to do a round-by-round for you next time I play ^_^
I'll make sure to share any ideas I have - can't guarantee they'll all be cool though
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Kelly
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I will play with the granite strength rules change but I have a small feeling it will either not matter or be crippling when you can't get out when you roll a "6" strength granite on the exit shake
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Joseph Propati
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San Diego
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Kelzky wrote:
I will play with the granite strength rules change but I have a small feeling it will either not matter or be crippling when you can't get out when you roll a "6" strength granite on the exit shake


The new rules explain that the exit can't be placed on a granite. Everything now must be placed in an empty hex at the setup, nothing can be placed together in a hex.

I like the element under the granite idea!

I need to think more and play test the extra die use idea.
 
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