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Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #3» Forums » Rules

Subject: Very Large and Stopped rss

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Rick Jenkins
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When a tank fires at a very large stopped enemy tank at one-hex range there are two TH DRMs, -2 from Case 22 and -2 from Case 25, for a total of -4.

But when a tank fires at a machine gun nest in a building at one-hex range, Case 22 and Case 25 don't apply. In fact, there is a +2 or +3 TEM TH DRM per rule 3.2.4. (last sentence of the Infantry Type Target paragraph).

This makes no sense to me! A building is usually larger than a very large tank and is about as stopped as stopped can be. At one-hex range, there is no missing.

It seems to me that the Case 22 and 25 DRMs ought to give the same TH DRMs when firing at a building and the building TEM should apply as a TK DRM, like it does for area fire.

Am I missing something in the rules about firing at buildings?
 
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Reuben Lam
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If you're firing at an infantry target type in a building they're more spread out and possibly in more cover due to the interior walls and such. They're not all in the same room waiting for a shell to take them all out. Sure you can hit the building, but can you hit that concentration of enough exposed bodies to cause a morale check. You spoting a round through a specific spot, like through a window. Hence the TEM on the to hit roll. If you use area target type your aiming at the broad side of a barn.. and easier to hit, but less likely to have an effect on the soldiers hiding inside.because You're not targeting them.
 
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Daniel Takai
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Shooting HE or AP at Infantry in a building from one hex away still yields -2 for point blank fire. However you'll need to add TEM as well, so in a wooden building, that evens out.

If you shoot Area Fire however, the point blank modifier does not apply. So in addition to halving the effect, the target also becomes harder to hit.

If the very large tank were in a building, both point blank and target size would apply, as well as the TEM of the building. But tanks cannot be in buildings in Starter Kit, can they?
 
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Rick Jenkins
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takai wrote:
Shooting HE or AP at Infantry in a building from one hex away still yields -2 for point blank fire. However you'll need to add TEM as well, so in a wooden building, that evens out.


Hey Daniel - I overlooked the PBF TH DRM in the rules. Can you give me a reference? Thanks.
 
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Rick Jenkins
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fuzynblue wrote:
If you're firing at an infantry target type in a building they're more spread out and possibly in more cover due to the interior walls and such. They're not all in the same room waiting for a shell to take them all out. Sure you can hit the building, but can you hit that concentration of enough exposed bodies to cause a morale check. You spoting a round through a specific spot, like through a window. Hence the TEM on the to hit roll. If you use area target type your aiming at the broad side of a barn.. and easier to hit, but less likely to have an effect on the soldiers hiding inside.because You're not targeting them.

Reuben, I agree with your reasoning but I think it applies to TK and not TH. The TH against a building from one-hex range should be almost guaranteed, with reasonable DRMs applied to TK.

Update: Reuben, I now see what you're saying. Agreed!
 
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Quantum Jack
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your original statement had you shooting at a "machine gun nest" in a building. sure, you can hit the building no problem, but can you hit the machine gun nest? the TO HIT roll should determine whether you hit the target, not the region around the target.

a machine gun nest in a building is much harder to hit than a large standing tank.

(but the kill chance if you do hit should be much higher)
 
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Rick Jenkins
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Quantum_Jack wrote:
your original statement had you shooting at a "machine gun nest" in a building. sure, you can hit the building no problem, but can you hit the machine gun nest? the TO HIT roll should determine whether you hit the target, not the region around the target.

a machine gun nest in a building is much harder to hit than a large standing tank.

(but the kill chance if you do hit should be much higher)


That's a winning argument. I didn't look at it like that. Makes sense now.
 
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Perry Cocke
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Dubarnik wrote:
takai wrote:
Shooting HE or AP at Infantry in a building from one hex away still yields -2 for point blank fire. However you'll need to add TEM as well, so in a wooden building, that evens out.


Hey Daniel - I overlooked the PBF TH DRM in the rules. Can you give me a reference? Thanks.


In SK, on the Infantry Target Type, I think point blank is baked in to the TH at range 1 (or 2). No modifier is needed.

On the Vehicle Target Type, DRM are needed since point blank might be NA if anyone is in motion.

(He said semi-confidently without benefit of rules.)
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Daniel Takai
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What Perry said, I just looked it up. The modifier for ITT is baked into the table. For vehicles it is #25 on the chart.
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