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Subject: Regarding Cancelling Cards rss

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Bill Thomson Bill Thomson
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For Example, the Norad card is in effect. it is canceled when Quagmire is played. Does this happen regardless of how the cancelling card (Quagmire in this case), as event, operations or space race, or as a forces discard? As the US player, I played Quagmire as Operation. My future play will be influenced by whether Norad is in effect or cancelled.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Quagmire only cancels NORAD if played as event. You played it for OPs, so you also played it for event, but you choose the order. So you could benefit from NORAD before NORAD is cancelled.

EDIT because ----ing NORAD, man, that card is so full of rule pitfalls.
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John Clemente
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Ben is right. If you, as USA play Quagmire (first) for 3 ops, at def=3, and coup a BG, then def goes to 2 and NORAD should award a 1 op placement. Then, the Quagmire event takes place and NORAD goes away.

I don't know if I've ever seen this, and don't know if Steam works it this way, but as I understand the rules, it should happen this way.
 
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Alex
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wga8888 wrote:
For Example, the Norad card is in effect. it is canceled when Quagmire is played. Does this happen regardless of how the cancelling card (Quagmire in this case), as event,

Yes

wga8888 wrote:
operations

Depends, see answers above.

wga8888 wrote:
or space race

No

wga8888 wrote:
or as a forces discard?

Certainly not.

Events from forced discard (Blockade, Latin America Crisis, etc) and Space Race do not occur.
Event has to occur in order to have the cancellation effect.
 
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Bill Thomson Bill Thomson
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if the US player played Quagmire as space race (as noted in the ACTS log entry 145) is Norad still canceled.

Going into the next turn I thought Norad was still in effect; opponent considered it cancelled as Quagmare card appeared, regardless how used.
 
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Ben Kyo
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wga8888 wrote:
if the US player played Quagmire as space race (as noted in the ACTS log entry 145) is Norad still canceled.

No, nope, nuh-uh, negative, naw, nay, not on your nelly.
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Kristian Thy
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Benkyo wrote:
Quagmire only cancels NORAD if played as event. You played it for OPs, so you also played it for event, but you choose the order. So you could benefit from NORAD before NORAD is cancelled.


What? The NORAD effect occurs "at the conclusion of any action round" where the DEFCON marker moves to 2. Surely the Quagmire event happens before the conclusion of the action round, cancelling NORAD before the effect occurs that round.
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Ben Kyo
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turbothy wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Quagmire only cancels NORAD if played as event. You played it for OPs, so you also played it for event, but you choose the order. So you could benefit from NORAD before NORAD is cancelled.


What? The NORAD effect occurs "at the conclusion of any action round" where the DEFCON marker moves to 2. Surely the Quagmire event happens before the conclusion of the action round, cancelling NORAD before the effect occurs that round.

Sounds like you are right. NORAD keeps tripping me up.
 
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John Clemente
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Agreed. I missed that key phrase in the NORAD text.

In past games, I thought I had seen instances of NORAD not paying off, and at the time I wasn't clear why. Now I see it.
 
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Bill Thomson Bill Thomson
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My understanding was the benefits of Norad (the free 1 US influence) keeps reoccuring everytime the Defcon moves back to 2. Until Cancelled.

I am looking for a straight forward answer that Norad is not cancelled if Quagmire is played as Space Race, to convince my opponent. A confusing round-about logical inference will not suffice.

More generally must cancelling cards be played as an event to cancel their event; does a forced discard or space race still cancel the event?
 
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Alex
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afafard wrote:
Event has to occur in order to have the cancellation effect.
 
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Michael Kiefte
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wga8888 wrote:
I am looking for a straight forward answer that Norad is not cancelled if Quagmire is played as Space Race, to convince my opponent. A confusing round-about logical inference will not suffice.


NORAD is not cancelled if Quagmire is played in the Space Race.

Quote:
More generally must cancelling cards be played as an event to cancel their event;


yes

Quote:
does a forced discard or space race still cancel the event?


no
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Ben Kyo
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wga8888 wrote:
I am looking for a straight forward answer that Norad is not cancelled if Quagmire is played as Space Race, to convince my opponent. A confusing round-about logical inference will not suffice.

More generally must cancelling cards be played as an event to cancel their event; does a forced discard or space race still cancel the event?

Ah, so you are looking for a rule/FAQ/designer quote, not just an answer. I've had a look and can't find any reference that explicitly states what you are looking for. I do have a few round-about logical inferences for you though. If they don't suffice, probably best to tell your opponent to give up on Twilight Struggle - it isn't the right game for him/her.

1. Flower Power is the only effect that doesn't care if a card is played for the event or OPs, and consequently has that explicitly spelled out on the card itself ("played as an event or Operations"). For all other purposes, a card played for Operations/Space Race/discard may as well be completely devoid of text, except for the Operations number.

2. Other cards specify as part of their event text which card they cancel, so it is obvious that it is the event, and not the name of the card, that is doing the cancelling ("Cancels effects of NATO for France", "Cancels NATO for W. Germany", "Cancels/prevents Willy Brandt", "Cancels/prevents Flower Power"). Quagmire lacks this text, so perhaps your opponent is holding to this difference as support for their position. The reason for the difference is that NORAD is an "optional" card and did not exist in the first edition. Perhaps Quagmire should be reprinted, but I haven't heard of anyone else making the same mistake as your opponent.

3. The various online rule-enforced implementations of Twilight Struggle (Playdek, Vassal, Wargameroom, Chantry) all get this correct. They may each have some obscure rule errors, but nothing as obvious as this would be, and they are all consistent and correct in how they implement the Quagmire/NORAD interactions.

4. The deluxe edition of the game has been in print since 2009, and spacing/discarding/USSR playing for OPs Quagmire has come up countless times in tournaments and games which directly or indirectly involve one of the designers.
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Michael Kiefte
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Benkyo wrote:
Ah, so you are looking for a rule/FAQ/designer quote, not just an answer. I've had a look and can't find any reference that explicitly states what you are looking for.


If that's the case, then the person cannot be helped. If you cannot refer to the expertise of several very experienced players, then there's nothing for it.
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Aaron Percival
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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You discard to the Space Race; you don't play a card to the Space Race

Twilight Struggle Rules 2nd Ed. wrote:
6.4.5 Regardless of text on the card, an Event discarded to make a die roll to advance on the Space Race track is not implemented. The card is placed in the discard pile.
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Ben Kyo
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Percy0715 wrote:
You discard to the Space Race; you don't play a card to the Space Race

Twilight Struggle Rules 2nd Ed. wrote:
6.4.5 Regardless of text on the card, an Event discarded to make a die roll to advance on the Space Race track is not implemented. The card is placed in the discard pile.

While this is true, a cherry-picked quote skirts the problem, as the rules also use "play" for the same process:
Twilight Struggle Rules Deluxe edition wrote:
6.4.1 The Space Race track contains a marker for each superpower. Operations points may be spent by a superpower to attempt to move its marker to the next box on the track. To do so, play a card with an Operations point value equal to or greater than the number shown on the track into which you are attempting to advance.

6.4.2 A player may only play 1 card per turn in an attempt to advance in the Space Race.

Also, clarifying only the space race would not convince a rules lawyer that a USSR play of Quagmire for OPs also does not cancel NORAD.
 
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Bill Thomson Bill Thomson
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Actually I was just looking for an answer. Do cancelling cards cancel and event if they are played as either space race or a forced discard. I believe the correct answer is No.

If played as an event or Ops/Opponent's event, then the cancelling card does cancel the corresponding event.
 
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Ben Kyo
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wga8888 wrote:
Actually I was just looking for an answer. Do cancelling cards cancel and event if they are played as either space race or a forced discard. I believe the correct answer is No.

If that is the case, why did you write "I am looking for a straight forward answer that Norad is not cancelled if Quagmire is played as Space Race, to convince my opponent. A confusing round-about logical inference will not suffice."?

You had... uh... eight explicit "no" answers to the question before you posted the question again, for the third time (I'm not counting "not on your nelly", because some people aren't familiar with rhyming slang), and not a single attempt at a confusing round-about logical inference.
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Carlo Patek
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wga8888 wrote:
My understanding was the benefits of Norad (the free 1 US influence) keeps reoccuring everytime the Defcon moves back to 2. Until Cancelled.

I am looking for a straight forward answer that Norad is not cancelled if Quagmire is played as Space Race, to convince my opponent. A confusing round-about logical inference will not suffice.


If you need a straight forward answer, you could ask directly the developers.
They usually respond to this kind of questions.
 
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