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Subject: Combining Base set and War Eternal: The Basic Nemesis Problem rss

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Abel Kim
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As we all wait expectantly for August to come along with War Eternal (and pray that a breach attack doesn't delay shipments), the problem of combining the Basic Nemesis cards from both sets needs to be addressed.

Sure, you could just combine them based on their tier. However, when you add in the Basic cards to create a Nemesis deck, there is a higher chance of having a Nemesis deck tier 1, 2, and/or 3 full of only minions, or powers, or attacks. This is a negative because of 3 reasons:
1. Having a tier full of only minions raises the difficulty and can kill players faster.
2. Having a tier full of powers can inhibit deck growth.
3. Having a tier full of attacks cannot be dealt with.
4. Lacking in variety is boring.
6. I no knows hows to count.

With that in mind, I would suggest storing the basic nemesis cards based on tier and type. So you would have Tier 1 minions, Tier 1 powers, Tier 1 attacks, Tier 2 minions, Tier 2 powers, ...
By doing so, this would lead into my next suggestion: lowering the pool of cards to choose from.

For Tier 1, 2, and 3 choose (randomly) 3 minions, 4 powers, and 3 attacks from their respective Tiers to make the pool. Then, from that pool, follow the basic nemesis chart as listed in the rulebook.

Someone could also just create a sort of "Market suggestion" list, but for basic nemesis cards instead.

Of course, these are just some ideas as to how I would try to approach the problem. For some people, they may not view it as a problem. For others, they may not like my idea as it would add time to setup and teardown. Whatever the case, feel free to discuss this and talk about your own ideas on how to approach this topic.
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I agree that the edge cases can either increase or decrease swing, based on just what comes out. However, in general, I'm comfortable with sticking with a full shuffle. You'll tend towards more normalized numbers. Edge cases will exist, but they've always existed. (I'm looking at you, games with 3 minions as the first nemesis cards!)

If you really wanted a 'normalized' selection, I think the method that requires the least setup is a pre-determined number of minions/powers/attacks for the appropriate player count and tier. For example, when generating the Tier 1 portion of a deck for 4 players, you could specifically pull out 2 minions, 3 powers, and 3 attacks. That way, if you divided your cards by both type and tier, it's still possible to pull out individual sections.

While your suggested method of pulling out multiple minions does add more variety, it also adds additional overhead to shuffle, count, and re-shuffle based on the player number. That being said, it's likely also a little truer to the original randomness of the game.

I imagine different people will figure out different ideas that fit them.
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Mark Johnson
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Why not leave the each sets basic nemesis stuff together as a set, rather than mix them. You could randomly determine which set of basic nemesis stuff you're going to give the nemesis.

You'll still have a high variety in the market, characters chosen, and the nemesis themselves. If you feel like this is not enough variety, every now and then, you could still have two sets of nemesis stuff, but mixed between sets so that powers/minions/etc. are of a good balance.
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Crazed Survivor
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I did suggest set-up cards reminiscent to the market set-up cards to Kevin. I don't know if the idea has been taken into consideration.

IIRC the rulebook for War Eternal is supposed to give instructions as to how to build the deck when combining with Aeon's End.
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Kevin 'qxc' Riley
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We included some guidelines for how to build the nemesis deck since you'll be using all sets. Main thing is the game is ~designed to have a balance of minions/powers/attacks. So doing some pre separation to ensure that happens is a fine approach. Some may like the ability for the decks to be more surprising / farther off the norm.
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Yan Bertrand
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I'm in favor of more variety, so I'm perfectly happy with a full-random set of Basic cards for the Nemesis deck setup.
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Bob Boberson
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Time to resurrect this topic now that we have AE: WE in hand... can anyone give the basic breakdown by tier of power cards/minions/attack cards? Is the distribution the same between AE: Vanilla and AE: WE?

It seems like it would make sense to just maintain this distribution by tier and randomly draw the cards that fulfill each type i.e. 4 attack cards in tier 1, for example.

I suppose that this changes by player count as well... hmmm... I guess the solution is more about making sure the pool of available cards maintains these ratios before randomly selecting.
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Abel Kim
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On Average, I think there are more minions showing up in each tier in War Eternal.
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Anon Y. Mous
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The distribution of all 3 is probably less important than the ratio of minions to non-minions. Powers and attacks are (probably) pretty interchangeable.
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Crazed Survivor
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Or are they. Discarding power cards can really slow your development down. Attack cards just smash your face. I think the difference matters quite a deal. Especially when you're playing Phaedraxa. And Nym, obviously.
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Anon Y. Mous
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After a few games with the full random setup, not knowing what's coming does raise the difficulty, but I haven't seen any degenerate shuffles. It's a large enough random sample (roughly 1/3 of the cards) that the probability of it being unplayably far off the typical distribution is tiny.
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Greg
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qxc0 wrote:
We included some guidelines for how to build the nemesis deck since you'll be using all sets.


Where are these guidelines?
 
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Crazed Survivor
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Gregolution wrote:
qxc0 wrote:
We included some guidelines for how to build the nemesis deck since you'll be using all sets.


Where are these guidelines?


Don't mix the sets whistle



More seriously, I didn't find them. The rulebook tells you that it will make the game harder but that's it :-S
 
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Greg
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Yeah that's all I saw in the manual too. Odd.
 
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Kevin 'qxc' Riley
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Gregolution wrote:
qxc0 wrote:
We included some guidelines for how to build the nemesis deck since you'll be using all sets.


Where are these guidelines?


I thought we included guidelines but I guess I misremembered.

1 or 2 minions max per each tier is the easiest thing to do to create more balance. Too many or too few minions tends to mess up the pacing more than anything else and is one of the easiest things you can do before setup.

There's more complicated things you can do like balancing player/gh damage but to many people the increased sorting and setup time needed to build a deck that way wouldn't be worth the increase in consistency across your games.
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qxc0 wrote:
Gregolution wrote:
qxc0 wrote:
We included some guidelines for how to build the nemesis deck since you'll be using all sets.


Where are these guidelines?


I thought we included guidelines but I guess I misremembered.

1 or 2 minions max per each tier is the easiest thing to do to create more balance. Too many or too few minions tends to mess up the pacing more than anything else and is one of the easiest things you can do before setup.

There's more complicated things you can do like balancing player/gh damage but to many people the increased sorting and setup time needed to build a deck that way wouldn't be worth the increase in consistency across your games.


In the end minions are not the things that trouble me most. What really imbalances the mix IMO is when you have too many actions that do Unleash twice. There's just no way to overcome this, especially with Wraithmonger due to his alt. win con. but not limited to him.
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