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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Reviews

Subject: A fun game, but these days a potentially expensive and complex one rss

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David Griffin
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Star Trek Attack Wing is one of those games that tends to have a love/hate relationship to their players.

For one thing, it’s a game where there is always more money to spend and a game where the top end is pretty staggeringly huge. This is not just because of what you might spend in your Friendly Local Game Store, but what you might have to spend on eBay just to get the various OP (organized play) resources and prizes (unless you’re so good you can WIN the OPs).

For another, this is a game that turns multiple faces to the outside world. It’s a tactical game to some, a living card game to others, and a brutally tough (and deep) competitive game in the tournaments. For people who love the theme, it can be a very satisfying thematic game (even if some of the cards are somewhat implausible), yet for competitors playing “mixed faction”, theme isn’t as important as the combos which are possible when playing any card you can fit into your ship.

It has been the subject of fairly …ummm… vigorous argument, some of it rancorous, about how it should be played and what Whiz Kid’s intentions were in creating the game. And those arguments have probably turned off quite a lot of people, as the price has, the limited availability in some areas, the cutthroat competition in OPs, and inconsistent and poor support WK has given the game over its lifetime.

Yet, with all that, it’s quite a fun game. It’s fun to come up with builds (whether thematic or not) for the ships, and it’s fun to try to execute on that build on the board. The gameplay is fast and interesting, and the game rewards both collection size and skill born of experience. By comparison, Federation Commander, clearly an attempt at more realistic Starship combat in the world of Star Trek (though inhabiting its own ST universe) seems slow and plodding by comparison. Attack Wing can really create fun, thematic play that builds narrative in a way that other tactical games do not.

All that said, Attack wing has changed over time. At the beginning, it was a relatively simple game to learn and to teach, though deceptively deep in terms of tactics and strategy. As it has acquired more and more ships and cards (of highly variable quality), the card interactions have grown to the point where keeping up with the game is nearly a full time job of prowling the forums and discussing the latest additions. Lack of support means quite a lot of problematic cards and combos have no true rulings and the text of some cards make the meaning hard to determine.

In its current form, there is a small, but dedicated cadre of players who are mostly playing OPs in mixed faction play. They are often highly skilled and have a lot invested in the game. It may be difficult for a new player to afford to acquire a competitive set of ships and cards and to rise to the necessary level of expertise to play competitively. Still there’s a fun game there if you have the money and the time and the right kind of mind to compete successfully. For me, the complexity has left me behind, much as it did in Star Fleet Battles. But I had many hours of fun along the way.
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Justin Hare
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Seems a fairly accurate summary. I do think the faction and card packs are meant to be a way to get into the game cheaper and more easily. Core set + Romulan faction pack nets you five ships and what should be enough to play some decent fleets.
 
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David Griffin
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Church14 wrote:
Seems a fairly accurate summary. I do think the faction and card packs are meant to be a way to get into the game cheaper and more easily. Core set + Romulan faction pack nets you five ships and what should be enough to play some decent fleets.


Yes I hope they help.
 
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Darren Martin
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As a casual X-Wing player, I was tempted to also play Attack Wing (and even bought the starter set). I gave the idea up pretty quickly when I realised that I couldn't find Federation ships in stock anywhere.
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Les Marshall
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pincher wrote:
As a casual X-Wing player, I was tempted to also play Attack Wing (and even bought the starter set). I gave the idea up pretty quickly when I realised that I couldn't find Federation ships in stock anywhere.


I've become a competitive X-Wing player over time and initially bought into Attack Wing as well based on the theme. Mechanically, it is very similar to X-Wing.

Problems:

The designers of Attack Wing took a very simplistic (and problematic) approach to assigning costs to ships. They basically took the 4 stats and doubled them. There was no accounting for differing fire arcs, movement dials, action bars or special abilities of named ships.

Although the game was not "collectible", they did manage to introduce that feature by offering randomized ships at tournaments with which you "had" to play. Moreover, they offered prize support in the form of additional ships and cards which were not available for sale to the public but impacted the game in rather significant ways instantly sprouting a massive secondary ebay market.

At the time I quit and sold off my stuff, the Borg had emerged with several ships including the Borg cube which had a powerful 360 degree attack and and unique movement dial (which again was not reflected in the ship cost) and was regarded by many as quite unbalanced.

Collecting Attack Wing may still be a rewarding if you stick to casual play and perhaps add in a few home brew rules to restrict the "prize" cards and redress the point costs.
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Steven Redfearn
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I love this game and I hate this game. I love that it can be thematic, that you can mix things up, and you can run wacky builds, And the scenarios, can't forget those. But I hate how broken and overpowered it can be, especially in the OP scene.
I absolutely hate the Borg in this game, so much so I refuse to own anything with the faction tag - every RIF ship I won, I kept the other faction cards and gave the Borg stuff to new players, even the grand prize cube.
That being said, this is still my game of choice.
 
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Shecky Goldstein
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The Borg got nerfed.
Whoeever has the largest spaceframe (they got shuttles now) has an advantage that is very hard to overcome. If a guy has 5 weapons, he pays the same price, ratiowise, as a guy with 3 weapons. Bolt-on weapons are going to cost you more. So even if you pay out the ass for a secondary weapon, you probably still aren't going to match the organically larger hull. If you add shielding... again, higher cost ratio.
Meanwhile the guy with the huge ship is buying a smaller ship or buying Tech, which you can't afford because you bought shields & torpedos.

Additionally, the ships & cards Wiz Kids were releasing on the market were complete crap. You "have to" get some prize ships for the cards, if not a REAL special ability.

Lastly, to hell with CBS/Paramount. I'm not giving them any more money.
 
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David Griffin
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Your Father wrote:

The Borg got nerfed.
Whoeever has the largest spaceframe (they got shuttles now) has an advantage that is very hard to overcome. If a guy has 5 weapons, he pays the same price, ratiowise, as a guy with 3 weapons. Bolt-on weapons are going to cost you more. So even if you pay out the ass for a secondary weapon, you probably still aren't going to match the organically larger hull. If you add shielding... again, higher cost ratio.
Meanwhile the guy with the huge ship is buying a smaller ship or buying Tech, which you can't afford because you bought shields & torpedos.

Additionally, the ships & cards Wiz Kids were releasing on the market were complete crap. You "have to" get some prize ships for the cards, if not a REAL special ability.

Lastly, to hell with CBS/Paramount. I'm not giving them any more money.


This isn't completely fair but there are too many elements of truth in it. Yes the Borg's nerf makes them still playable but still powerful. No longer do they seem to dominate the game as far as I can tell from the outside (I'm not playing much anymore).

Secondary weapons are mostly pretty useless but there are some that aren't. There are a couple of good Romulan ones, a good Borg one, and an interesting one from the Independent faction. You're better off, in general, having ships with good weapon stats from the start -- much better off (which explains why the Borg are still a factor).

Some factions (like the Feds) have cards to add shields which can be quite powerful. And there are lots of good commercial cards, but many very good, very desirable cards ARE in the prize packs. The cards that make the Constitution desirable are mostly in these prize packs.

Not a game under good and consistent control by the publisher. Too bad the original designers, Andrew Parks and Chris Guild, are not still in charge.

Plus there's an interesting distinction between STAW and XWing. XWing is designed to allow the players to climb inside Star Wars and imagine themselves as the characters in the movies. Theme is paramount. STAW has all the ships (well most of the ships) but for the players still playing, theme is very secondary. The heart of the remaining game is mixed faction competitive play where a ship bears no resemblance to the on-screen version other than the mini being used. Fleets are designed by their card capabilities not for their thematic beats. You can play the game thematically, but few of the remaining players do.

 
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Bwian, just
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Theme is more than "do cards share icons". The thing I like most about this game is that you can create lots of weird and wonderful combinations of effects: not only is this an interesting design problem, but it is (for better or for worse) very true to the technobabble solutions we see on the show. It's a difficult game balance problem, and it's certainly not perfectly implemented here, but since most other games don't even bother trying I find it to be very refreshing.

(OK, the thing I like most most is pre-painted minis. But that's only because I hate painting with a passion. )
 
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David Griffin
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Bwian wrote:
Theme is more than "do cards share icons". The thing I like most about this game is that you can create lots of weird and wonderful combinations of effects: not only is this an interesting design problem, but it is (for better or for worse) very true to the technobabble solutions we see on the show. It's a difficult game balance problem, and it's certainly not perfectly implemented here, but since most other games don't even bother trying I find it to be very refreshing.

(OK, the thing I like most most is pre-painted minis. But that's only because I hate painting with a passion. )


Then you are in the same boat with virtually ALL the people still playing. The weird and wonderful combo thing is a lot of what they're looking for. Yes it's possible to have builds which borrow an occasional card from another faction (because it's a generic system, or because some mixing does happen in the show with a story behind it) but the stuff you see in OPs are typically not those kinds of builds.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just saying that crawling inside of a Star Trek episode is not what those folks want to do.

As far as minis are concerned, I pretty much repainted all of mine anyway with a few exceptions such as Prototype 01 and the Scimitar and some others.
 
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Evan
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carbon_dragon wrote:
I'm not criticizing


Dude

You've been harping on this foolish idea for literally years now

Top-level tournaments, podcasts, and BGG have historically been overwhelmingly pro-mixing. I'd say my local scene is easily 50% pro-theme. From what I hear, that's not unusual. (Though if you count people who think theme should play at least some part in their builds, it's probably more like 90%.)

You might have been pleasantly surprised to discover a similar ratio in your area if you had ever attempted to participate, instead of watching a few episodes of SotF and saying "oh, these views are clearly representative of the entire community; I don't want to get involved in that, so I'll just indefinitely cherry-pick whatever overheard Internet claims appear to support my prejudices."
 
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David Griffin
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kobold47 wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
I'm not criticizing


Dude

You've been harping on this foolish idea for literally years now

Top-level tournaments, podcasts, and BGG have historically been overwhelmingly pro-mixing. I'd say my local scene is easily 50% pro-theme. From what I hear, that's not unusual. (Though if you count people who think theme should play at least some part in their builds, it's probably more like 90%.)

You might have been pleasantly surprised to discover a similar ratio in your area if you had ever attempted to participate, instead of watching a few episodes of SotF and saying "oh, these views are clearly representative of the entire community; I don't want to get involved in that, so I'll just indefinitely cherry-pick whatever overheard Internet claims appear to support my prejudices."


Don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm not promoting ANY idea. Nor am I trying to convince anyone of anything. And I did play the OPs for quite a while. I am not very competitive though, and I'm 60 and in poor health so standing up for 4-5 hours is just too much of a strain. I'm also not the sort of player who likes the whole competitive environment with super min/maxed builds. I'm more of a wargamer.

If you're talking about mixed play vs. "pure" play, that ship has sailed. No point in arguing about it now.
 
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Henry Grossen

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As someone just getting into the game, if not for a friend of mine lending me ships to get started playing, I wouldn't have even considered spending $10-20 (or more) per ship.

But as it is with any tabletop game; if you can clear that first $60-$300 entry barrier, it can be a lot of fun.

I started with just the core "strong" ships to be competitive at my game store (A Voyager, A Prometheus, A Scimitar, A Neghvar, a couple of other Klingon vessels because I like Klingons) And my brother did the same; we both put about $70 or so down and had a lot of fun getting into it. Over the last 6 months, our collections (good old ebay) and fun level has climbed steadily and evened out. I think this has become a permanent hobby for the time being.

At times it feels like I joined a dying game; but the new expansions coming out have me quite excited that perhaps it WILL in fact continue to grow over the coming years.
Whether thematic matches or not, I'm having a ton of fun.
And I've found in some games; even a severely outmatched fleet can do well with good maneuvering and some luck of the dice.

Whether you are super into the competitive scene or not, like most things, the most important thing is to have a good group of people to play with.

Just thoughts.
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David Griffin
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On the positive side, the ships coming out lately might not be new, but they're painted better and you can buy them. For a while there lots of ships were VERY hard to find. They claim they are going to put out "faction packs." I don't think those are in the stores yet.
 
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Ah, sorry, for some reason I thought you had only attended a few OP events. Still, whatever your own local meta may be like, there's absolutely no merit to the suggestion that "virtually all of the people still playing" are combo-seeking min/maxers who design fleets "by their card capabilities not for their thematic beats"
 
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David Griffin
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kobold47 wrote:
Ah, sorry, for some reason I thought you had only attended a few OP events. Still, whatever your own local meta may be like, there's absolutely no merit to the suggestion that "virtually all of the people still playing" are combo-seeking min/maxers who design fleets "by their card capabilities not for their thematic beats"


I did maybe 10 OPs over a year at 3 venues. My local venue is a bunch of pretty good guys, but VERY competitive. I thought most of the people still in the game are mixed faction players who are very into the combo thing, and the STAW meta similar to Magic or other collectable/living card games. And I think you have to be pretty competitive to do the whole tournament thing playing 3 games in succession. Plus a lot of them do min/max (even me) and I don't consider this a bad thing.

As the game progressed, I tried to keep up with the rules but felt like I was at the point where I could no longer keep all the rules and rulings straight. It started off a simple game and got pretty complicated as time went on. I think to play seriously today you have to really be dedicated to keep up with that stuff and have the right kind of mind.

Though I DO find, at least at my local meta and what I see on YouTube and at the worlds tournament 2 years ago that very few of those players tried to create thematic fleets except once in a while to prove they could.

I DID argue for thematic play once upon a time, but I had to accept that that isn't the spirit of the game as far as I could tell and never was intended to be. I got an awful lot of fun from the game though.
 
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Alan Barrett
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I bought this game a while back now and for a while liked many aspects of it. I suppose I still do like many aspects of it. However, I got to feeling very irked by what I have referred to elsewhere as the 'paranormal', action-at-a-distance with no plausible causal underpinning, of too many of the cards. I just found these to be impossible to reconcile with the theme of ship-to-ship combat, where crews are ALL likely to be good at what they do or they wouldn't be let loose on a bloody starship, ffs. Some effects were fine, when they related to the fighting effectiveness of a ship because of some enhanced crew skills or (even finer) technological improvements, differences and developments. No problem. Just a bit of reasonably differentiating spice. But then you get many other effects which (even in the unrealistic Western-in-Space context of a game like this) are just fathomlessly silly and inexplicable and made me think, "Right. Exactly HOW could he/she/it do that?" I'm really not keen on cross-factional stuff and canon-improbable mixing either - at least not to the extent some people choose to take it which just feels wrong. You could boil it all down to just having blank cards with numbers marked on with Sharpies: "I've got an 8..." / "Yeah - Well. I spent more and I've got a yellow, fluorescent 29, which means I go back in time and make sure you're not even born, so you can't have any cards or ships *POOF* - and, btw Marty, your Mom was hot back then...". Game over. Live long and prosper.
 
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StinkyHarry wrote:
However, I got to feeling very irked by what I have referred to elsewhere as the 'paranormal', action-at-a-distance with no plausible causal underpinning, of too many of the cards. I just found these to be impossible to reconcile with the theme of ship-to-ship combat, where crews are ALL likely to be good at what they do or they wouldn't be let loose on a bloody starship, ffs. Some effects were fine, when they related to the fighting effectiveness of a ship because of some enhanced crew skills or (even finer) technological improvements, differences and developments. No problem. Just a bit of reasonably differentiating spice. But then you get many other effects which (even in the unrealistic Western-in-Space context of a game like this) are just fathomlessly silly and inexplicable and made me think, "Right. Exactly HOW could he/she/it do that?"


Could you give some examples? It's hard to be sure without knowing exactly what you have in mind, but I feel like a lot of the implausibility comes from the source material.

A lot of card abilities are pretty specific references (to, for example, that one time Data forced a bunch of ships out of cloak, or an Admiral who led some task force or another, or that barely-named Kazon/Ferengi/whoever who sabotaged the ship in some particular way), but even those that aren't tend to embody the Star Trek idea that crews aren't all likely to be good at what they do. Every dang week our protagonists kludge together some new way to change the laws of physics to get the warp drive to 115% efficiency or keep a planet from exploding or whatever. They're just special like that. And no, it doesn't make a lot of sense, and when you're watching a TV show you have the luxury of not worrying about it, whereas a customizable game sort of forces you to confront the illogic.

And there's a discussion we've had many times regarding whether the game should be as nonsensical as the show (including not just the characters and the tech, but even the "what size is a bird of prey in this shot" problem), or whether it should be a "realistic" military simulator that happens to have Trek-looking ships and things called Klingons and photon torpedoes in it. I definitely prefer the former.
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Alan Barrett
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Examples? Oh, you know the sort of thing: "If this crew-member even looks at your ship the wrong way, its warp reactor malfunctions even though it's been working just fine across the light years up to now. And no one can come and fix it until, say, next Tuesday, at the earliest". That sort of thing.

Or THIS sort of thing:
 

How does he do any of that? Isn't he holding up the wrong finger?
 
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David Griffin
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I do agree that "legendary" officers (as Star Fleet Battles would call them) should make the ship better. But "regular" crew aren't really regular, they're well trained, efficient, good crew who know their jobs. The idea that a ship with a bunch of legendary officers can magically neutralize your crew even though your shields are up is a little implausible.

Yet, Star Trek is a TV show and often it's the case that some of the ways the Enterprise (any of them) wins isn't always the most likely outcome. In other words, the needs of the plot sometimes overrides a wargame like outcome.

I kind of agree that all the upgrade cards are fun, but it takes the improvement of a ship way too far from a wargame perspective (if not from a living card game perspective). But then, it's not REALLY a wargame (like Federation Commander is). It's a living card game that RESEMBLES a wargame superficially.

To play it as a wargame you need both players to work together to make the builds a bit more plausible.
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StinkyHarry wrote:

Or THIS sort of thing:
 

How does he do any of that?


Elementary!

Sorry; I got nothing
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Alan Barrett
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It is a bit too
 

isn't it? I'm not wrong or right, others aren't right or wrong: it's just not the game I was looking for and thought it was. Too much 'woo-woo' magic and 'builds' which just seem straightforwardly silly to me, without me wanting to open up any debate about factions etc. Romulan ships with Borg armour, captained by Hirogen - Hey, why not?...Well, because, that's why. But it's all a bit old now. If it's just about builds to gain an edge which make no thematic sense, why not save your money and just play chess? Infinite combinations, deep strategy and tactics, guaranteed equality and balance - the best player will, usually, win. (P.S. - AI battle computers would outrank any mere flesh-and-blood sentients with regards to the vast majority of combat decisions and reactions, anyway - surely? ;-) Driverless cars, already.....)
 
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Bwian, just
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kobold47 wrote:
StinkyHarry wrote:

Or THIS sort of thing:
 

How does he do any of that?


Elementary!

Sorry; I got nothing

Range of 1-2 usually means he transports over (and then the game is afoot). It's not like the writers were consistent on the subject of beaming through shields or anything...
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I have a LOT of stuff from the beginning of this game (I sponsored the tournys so tons of stuff from that too) My lesson is to buy as little as possible its actually a lot better. I wish I would have stuck to only the original series stuff.
 
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Just to reiterate a bit, there are literally two types of players playing this game, and to some extent that is the problem, because neither type regards the viewpoints of the other as valid or worthy of respect.

Type 1: People who approach the game as a living card game that incidentally has ships you move around on a board. Some notice that the ships are from some show called Star Trek, but that is secondary. The key to play is the combinations between cards, regardless of where those cards come from. Factions are important only because they make a card cost 1 point more if taken out of faction. Of course even the greatest build has to be played on the board, so there is an important (though secondary) aspect to the game in playing the build. In effect, the build is the score and the game is the performance to put it in musical terms.

Type 2: People who approach this game as a way to re-enact the battles they saw in their favorite TV shows and movies in Star Trek. Card combinations are secondary, and are most desirable when they create the feel of the episodes and put you in the chair of your favorite heroic captain, trying to better the "historical outcome." The game itself is the most important aspect of the game, and an easy win is not considered desirable no matter what side you're on.

You can imagine what happens when these two types of players meet. The Type 2 players get slaughtered by the power builds of the type 1s, and to rub salt into the wound, the loss is often accompanied by being up against a build which bears no thematic relation to the TV show. Player 2 leaves and never shows up again.

Or rarely, a bunch of type 2 players play a regular game and a type 1 player shows up, only to be told his build is against the thematic guidelines of the game. He gets mad and never shows up again.

Ironically, for all its faults, this game can actually do BOTH of these things to a fairly impressive degree. But it's a very different game with very different rules. In case you're wondering what game WK thought it was making, the answer is type 1. That's where the cards are aimed, and that's where the OPs are aimed. That's not to say you can't have lots of fun playing either way, but you will need to find like minded people to play with. It's not as simple as showing up to play Star Trek attack wing.

I personally believe that this mismatch of expectation is the principle reason for a lot of the bad feeling and anger this game generates.
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