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Subject: We will soon play another game after a few years rss

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amanwing
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I wanted to include Daybreak. Now I read it doesn't work well with the CFB. We always used it and never played without it. So after reading about it in other threats here I am still not sure what to do.
We will be 5 players going to Kobol.
What would you suggest?
Daybreak without the CFB?
CFB without Daybreak?
Daybreak with CFB without tweaks?
Daybreak with CFB with tweaks?

 
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Mark Johnson
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I'd go with Daybreak without CFB. That said, I haven't played much with the CFB. I don't tend to use it because I find it encourages early cylon reveals to hammer the CFB Cylon locations and I've read issues of damaging but not killing Basestars which makes the board a bit less of a threat. I enjoy random Cylon Attack crisis cards. Additionally, between Mutiny cards and the new brutal treachery deck, you will enjoy the lulls between Cylon Attack crisis cards.
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Pasi Ojala
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With Daybreak and CFB, including half of Pegasus treachery and taking out 1 Bait, 1-2 Dradis Contacts and 1 A Better Machine works for us.
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Mikhail Dektyarev
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I think Daybreak works fine with CFB. Earth doesn't.
But as usual, every player has different opinion, so you will have to find what suits your group best yourself.

If you are much more familiar with CFB then CAC, I suggest you play your first Daybreak game with CFB, so you will be able to feel what daybreak itself changes and don't mix it with CAC/CFB difference. Then try Daybreak with CAC. Then you will get an idea what you are doing
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amanwing
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Thank you all!
Since we never played without the CFB and I am willing to test it - would you say it favors Cylon or Humans to play without it?
And if we would play without it would you recommend to use the Pegasus board or not?
 
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Mark Johnson
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I'm inclined to think that the CFB hurts humans more than helps due to the powerful cylon locations and lingering civilian ships. Though, maybe that's just because I've only played with the CFB a few times and haven't gotten over the learning curve on how the human need to approach it. The new treachery cards from Daybreak are way more brutal than the ones that come with Pegasus. Mutiny cards can help the humans, but often sow seeds if discord among the group. If your group is more comfortable with the CFB, I'm inclined to agree with the previous poster who said to try with the CFB first and then without.
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Zach T
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Our group usually plays all expansions with the CFB, and we enjoy it a lot.

That said, our most common loss type is Population, so it seems those Baits do add up.

This is balanced out a bit by some of the other wonkier interactions of Daybreak with the CFB. Namely, Negotiations now just lets you straight up stall the fleet (as can one of the Mutinies), and Dradis Contact can do so in small quantities.

Don't know if there's a great way to fix the wonkier aspects. A simple fix to alleviate Bait pileup would be to let the current player reshuffle one civilian ship from behind Galactica every time the fleet jumps. Most of the time, we just make sure to have a good pilot and a backup pilot / Dee, and base our strategy around controlling the fleet.

The only straight-up broken aspect of Daybreak + CFB is the CL Motive "A Justified Response," which becomes almost impossible; won't be a problem for you in a 5-player game.

That said, Daybreak + CFB is still miles better than Pegasus + CFB, where Broadcast Location becomes the most powerful card in the game.

Note that if you ever run Exodus without the CFB, there are going to be way too few Cylon Attack Cards in the deck, and the game can become way too boring. If you go that route, I recommend that you remove 34 random non-CACs from the deck before starting to restore the correct proportion of CACs.
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amanwing
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That helped a lot! So I think we will use the CFB and use the tweak from a1bert: "With Daybreak and CFB, including half of Pegasus treachery and taking out 1 Bait, 1-2 Dradis Contacts and 1 A Better Machine works for us."
 
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Zach T
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I'd be interested in hearing how that turns out; I know if I were playing I'd just be abusing Broadcast Location left and right (though that is difficult without Ellen).
 
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Daybreak with CFB works just fine.

If players are that good, CFB to Earth is just as fine. Nothing wrong with a challenge

Eeeville wrote:
I'd go with Daybreak without CFB. That said, I haven't played much with the CFB. I don't tend to use it because I find it encourages early cylon reveals to hammer the CFB Cylon locations and I've read issues of damaging but not killing Basestars which makes the board a bit less of a threat. I enjoy random Cylon Attack crisis cards. Additionally, between Mutiny cards and the new brutal treachery deck, you will enjoy the lulls between Cylon Attack crisis cards.

How many games have they played with the CFB? I've noticed in one of our groups, it was "just a phase", like getting excited about super crisis cards (and why Cylon Symp was irritating), but when you get over the "shiny" of it, Cylon stayed unrevealed when it suited them more (e.g. have titles, or otherwise a good position to do damage by soft revealing).

TBF, a good number who reveal early are pilots. They have don't have too many meaningful ways to "play it straight".

Ironically enough, because how many of the 0-str skill cards in Daybreak involve a decision point, you're forced to either help humans to maintain your cover, or do a bad thing with them but out yourself. Being a revealed cylon completely frees you up to utilize the 0s for harm without direct repercussion.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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For the half-Pegasus-treachery variant: Also note that 1-cost treachery cards from Pegasus should be considered 0 for the purposes of Daybreak's reckless mechanism, and the Reckless Skill Check cards from Pegasus trigger when revealed from reckless skill checks.

Our group is using Reckless skill checks very judiciously, but they give hidden cylons another way to spice up the game.


We have played 200+ games with CFB. We don't get many early reveals. One of the reasons is not playing 6 player games that often and playing 4-player games with CL, so there is better chance for the cylon(s) to hold titles, which is a good reason no to reveal - especially if holding a suitable Personal Goal.
 
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amanwing
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Thanks! I will let you know how it goes.
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Kwijiboe
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Daybreak's mechanics are not as in-your-face as those mechanics found within Exodus.

Exodus tries to make the game harder by eating actions (escorts, Increased Cylon activity).

Whereas Daybreak tries to make the game harder by forcing action loss via mutiny cards.

Sometimes the two aspects can combine and people end up in the brig. At other times, Daybreak's mutiny does not have there time to breathe because it's components are much more latent compared to Exodus.

I recommend trying Daybreak alone. Its components will cycle into the game reliably and you can see how the expansion is trying to change the game. But, if you play with Exodus, it pushes Daybreak to the backseat, in my opinion.
 
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Mark Johnson
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ackmondual wrote:
How many games have they played with the CFB? I've noticed in one of our groups, it was "just a phase"


Not very many as previously stated. All I know, is in the few game I've played with the CFB, people revealed early to use those location. The basestar issue is just something I've read in the forums. So, I don't know how accurate it is. As I stated, it could just be a learning curve for humans thing, for sure. I just like the cylon attack crisis cards more, but I'm not opposed to playing more CFB games... I just don't get BSG to the table anymore. It's not for lack of want. Rather, it's that I don't have 5 people reliably that are interested in BSG *cry*
 
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Robert Stewart
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For me, CFB "fixed" the boring-flights problem by having a constant Cylon threat. Daybreak fixes it by having terrifying CACs.
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Kwijiboe
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I think it's the combination of action-pressure from mutiny, along with increased CAC pressure.

Do you risk using the action on your turn? If you have a mutiny card, and draw another, you have to waste even more actions (and cards) getting out of the brig.

All that being said, I don't particularly like any increase in the game's demand of actions. When the game has a strong demand for actions, it's much more difficult to engage in sabotage.

Focusing the game to skill check mechanic is what, in my opinion, BSG ought to be about. Daybreak delivers on this to an extent, but has some skill cards that are probably too strong in human hands.
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
For me, CFB "fixed" the boring-flights problem by having a constant Cylon threat. Daybreak fixes it by having terrifying CACs.

Except for that one CAC where the special rule is "gain 1 AR (Assault Raptor)". Granted, some of the others are nasty, but still, it's a head scratcher.
 
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Zach T
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Kwijiboe wrote:
I think it's the combination of action-pressure from mutiny, along with increased CAC pressure.

Do you risk using the action on your turn? If you have a mutiny card, and draw another, you have to waste even more actions (and cards) getting out of the brig.

All that being said, I don't particularly like any increase in the game's demand of actions. When the game has a strong demand for actions, it's much more difficult to engage in sabotage.

Focusing the game to skill check mechanic is what, in my opinion, BSG ought to be about. Daybreak delivers on this to an extent, but has some skill cards that are probably too strong in human hands.


There is a difference between Exodus and Daybreak's demand for actions, though.

In Exodus, dealing with the fleet is a human priority; you have to do it or you're going to get overrun eventually, to the point where it's in everyone's best interest to do it even before sleeper.

Dealing with Mutinies, however, is a personal question, even with Press Room in the mix. If you don't play your Mutiny, it's your ass on the line, not the Humans'. You've got to decide whether you want to get rid of/play your Mutiny to keep yourself out of the Brig down the line...or hold onto it because there are more important Human (or Cylon) actions, or you think there'll be a better time to play it later (e.g. Feed the People).

And some of the expansion combinations do allow for some extremely fun Mutiny plays...in a particularly memorable game as Boomer with the CFB, I held onto Unauthorized Usage from distance 3 on, before using it on what the Humans thought was the next-to-last turn of the game to blow up the entire civilian fleet.
 
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kingerc wrote:
Kwijiboe wrote:
I think it's the combination of action-pressure from mutiny, along with increased CAC pressure.

Do you risk using the action on your turn? If you have a mutiny card, and draw another, you have to waste even more actions (and cards) getting out of the brig.

All that being said, I don't particularly like any increase in the game's demand of actions. When the game has a strong demand for actions, it's much more difficult to engage in sabotage.

Focusing the game to skill check mechanic is what, in my opinion, BSG ought to be about. Daybreak delivers on this to an extent, but has some skill cards that are probably too strong in human hands.


There is a difference between Exodus and Daybreak's demand for actions, though.

In Exodus, dealing with the fleet is a human priority; you have to do it or you're going to get overrun eventually, to the point where it's in everyone's best interest to do it even before sleeper.

Dealing with Mutinies, however, is a personal question, even with Press Room in the mix. If you don't play your Mutiny, it's your ass on the line, not the Humans'. You've got to decide whether you want to get rid of/play your Mutiny to keep yourself out of the Brig down the line...or hold onto it because there are more important Human (or Cylon) actions, or you think there'll be a better time to play it later (e.g. Feed the People).

And some of the expansion combinations do allow for some extremely fun Mutiny plays...in a particularly memorable game as Boomer with the CFB, I held onto Unauthorized Usage from distance 3 on, before using it on what the Humans thought was the next-to-last turn of the game to blow up the entire civilian fleet.


For reference because I had to look it up myself...
Action: Launch 1 nuke at a basestar. Then remove this card and all nuke tokens from the game.
You cannot play this card if the Admiral has no nuke tokens.
 
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amanwing
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We have done it and it was a very close victory for the humans.
Two things have been weird:
1. We had a lot (like 6 or more) civil ships behind the galactica at some point
2. The fleet was delayed sometimes because we had to place two raiders in front of the Galactica. Or we had a single basestar sitting on the main board.
It felt a little strange. But no idea if we would change anything. Propably not for a few games.
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Victor Lesperance
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Our first 2 tries with the CFB were dismal failures. Someone above said lone basestars sometimes pop out and stall the fleet. For *us*, lone basestars *always* pop out and stall the fleet, yet aren't enough of a threat to even launch fighters over.

Over 2 games we only had one single viper fire on raiders once. The cylon team was pissed both games. I've hypothesized to them that maybe they need to reveal early and pound the CFB actions to make the fleet go.

Otherwise, it was just too easy to kite a raider, or time our jump so that the huge fleet did nothing... ever.

The response, with which I tend to agree, any game that pigeon-holes you into repeating the "obvious" moves is poorly designed. For me, personally, its even worse in that it reduces (or eliminates) the deception/deduction element which is the very mechanic that makes this game rise above all others, imho.

All that said... ironically... tomorrow we play pure Exodus in its entirety. I *want* to like it. So, our next couple of games are to see if familiarity can fix... something.

If anyone can provide advice today on how to avoid the null conflicts of the first two games, I will eagerly take it. Our first change: Pure Exodus, to see it as designers designed it.
 
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vlesperance wrote:
Our first 2 tries with the CFB were dismal failures. Someone above said lone basestars sometimes pop out and stall the fleet. For *us*, lone basestars *always* pop out and stall the fleet, yet aren't enough of a threat to even launch fighters over.

Over 2 games we only had one single viper fire on raiders once. The cylon team was pissed both games. I've hypothesized to them that maybe they need to reveal early and pound the CFB actions to make the fleet go.

Otherwise, it was just too easy to kite a raider, or time our jump so that the huge fleet did nothing... ever.

The response, with which I tend to agree, any game that pigeon-holes you into repeating the "obvious" moves is poorly designed. For me, personally, its even worse in that it reduces (or eliminates) the deception/deduction element which is the very mechanic that makes this game rise above all others, imho.

All that said... ironically... tomorrow we play pure Exodus in its entirety. I *want* to like it. So, our next couple of games are to see if familiarity can fix... something.

If anyone can provide advice today on how to avoid the null conflicts of the first two games, I will eagerly take it. Our first change: Pure Exodus, to see it as designers designed it.


There's a variant where you also advance the Pursuit track even if there are the appropriate matching ship types on the MGB. Try that [shrug]
 
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Zach T
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A less drastic approach would be (I've used an even tamer version of this in some variant PBF games):

Any time a Cylon ship activation only results in a single basestar activating or launching ships, advance the Pursuit Track by 1 if there are any ships on the Cylon Fleet Board.

Doesn't fix Dradis, but does tame Cylon Ambush / Negotations / Cavil abuse.
 
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Kwijiboe
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Pure Exodus is interesting at first (Ionian Nebula a part of your pure run?).

But it quickly becomes apparent that, since you cannot rely on the firepower or shielding of Pegasus, you really really need to kill shit and escort civilians. Which becomes quite the action sink.

It is purely an action race, and the allies become a distraction (intended, I believe) as the game progresses to the later phases. You want to dump trauma early in my opinion, but that sets the stage for damage later, especially if you're a human offloading antagonistic trauma or a pre-sleeper Cylon offloading benevolent trauma. Humans/unrevealed cylons can offload trauma much easier (one may be offloaded per "movement" step), where revealed Cylons can only offload trauma if they damage a location with an ally (they place the ally and one of their trauma tokens).

If anything, early Cylon reveals are somewhat disincenticized further since combat against basestars gives trauma to revealed Cylons (via the damage personnel damage token). This makes manufacturing, using nukes and engaging against Basestars, more interesting options. The Collateral Damage token and upgrades to nuke rules also allow nukes to be much better at destroying raiders--a must for the Exodus expansion. Overall, I think it's very interesting (and telling) that the Ionian Nebula module offers a solution to early reveals.

As noted, there are still a few pure exodus components which stall the CFB: Bass Game's Cylon Ambush and Exodus' Derelict Basestar.

But, from the Crisis deck, what you will see is an influx of crises (40 Exodus Crises) added to the game that challenge players to trade skill cards in order to prevent events rather than trading skill cards for resources. This is interesting in the context of CFB, because if you prevent events (adding stuff to the game board), you save actions.

All in all, it will make you miss Pegasus. So it's easy to see why, if you like what Exodus does, you are more likely to play with multiple expansions because they offer tools to deal with the CFB. (Pegasus' Pegasus and Daybreak's assault Raptors).


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Victor Lesperance
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So, we did try pure exodus over the weekend (every part of it, nothing else, no house rules).

It did not work again. The humans never engaged a single enemy ship. The fleet popped out twice. Both times during the -3 pop jump prep. One jump prep later, they hit FTL and left it all behind.

It was, however, a cylon victory at distance 7. I was a cylon admiral from the start. In a stroke of fantastic luck, on turn 2 one of the pilots looked at my loyalty card... and announced me human! He then proceeded to play the most pro-human game imaginable.

Whereas, I took us to a barren planet (-2 fuel), and got an earful from the table. BUT the really honest guy DID proclaim me human... so maybe it WAS a bad draw....

Then I chose to lose -1 fuel rather than -1 morale and go to sick bay... stating that I didn't trust people to XO me after the earful and I couldn't afford the trauma...

BUT the really over-the-top good player DID proclaim me human...

When the 2nd barren planet came out... I was executed and he was brigged.

But it was too late. 3 fuel to travel 4 distance wasn't in the cards. Particularly after I had left a 3 distance for 3 fuel at the top just before the last raptor exploded.

So, it wasn't a "full" game. But for the 75% that we played... not a single ship combat.
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