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Subject: Scoring system in Onirim app rss

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Ori Avtalion
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The latest update to the Onirim app introduces a scoring system, and a leaderboard.
The scoring system gives you points for a win in a game based on some metrics.
Your best score is then logged to the leaderboard.

I would have expected the leaderboard to be based on player statistics such as their win ratio combined with the total number of plays. Instead they invented quite elaborate rules for scoring that reward some actions, as well as playing quickly, and having more cards in the deck.

The "physical" Onirim game doesn't have a scoring system, so I doubt this is "official", but I could be wrong.

This scoring system to me seems at odds with how the game is designed, and the choices it provides to the player. I'm curious if anyone has any opinion of it. Would you say a high score in a game is any measure of skillful play? Does chasing a high score fundamentally change how you play the game? Do you like it, and if not, how would you design the leaderboard instead?

Here are the scoring rules, based on the in-app manual:

Base game:
Quote:
Series of 3 cards:
10 points per Star used
20 points per Moon used
50 points per Key used

Bonus points to each subsequent series (no other cards in between):
Chain directly series of 3 cards: +100/+200/+300... points
Chain directly series of 3 cards of the same color: additional +100/+200/+300... points

Specific event points
100 points per door unlocked with a key
200 points per Nightmare discarded using prophecy

Final bonus points
At the end of the game you will get bonus points for remaining time and number of cards left.

Glyphs:
Quote:
Series of 3 cards:
70 points per Glyph used

Specific event points
200 points per door unlocked via an incantation

Crossroads and dead ends:
Quote:
Specific event points
150 points per door unlocked with a crossroads key
200 points per dead end discarded via a Prophecy

Intersection variant

Series of 3 cards:
30 additional points if any crossroad used


Some of my own thoughts:

First of all, you will notice that you get extra points for completing a game quickly (in clock time, not moves). This changes the feeling of the game.

The score system can also disproportionally reward luck of the draw. Drawing a door with a key gives you points.

I would expect a skill-based score system to reward you for taking risks, not just lucking into opportune draws. For example, getting rid of a nightmare using a prophecy rewards you with points. This seems counter-intuitive. NOT discarding it is the risky move and should reward you more points. ("should" being tentative, as this is still dependent on luck of the draw).

Similarly, with the expansions you get points for playing the glyphs and crossroads. These cards are easier to play than the regular cards - why reward their use with points?

This also means that players who play with more expansions will get more points. The leaderboard currently combines all kinds of plays together - if someone is playing with all expansions, they are more likely to get more points and rank higher than someone who just plays the base game. Does this mean the two available expansions make the game tougher to beat, and the extra points serve as compensation? With the expansions' increased card size, you may also have a higher chance of winning with more cards left in the deck - even more points.

Would love to read your opinions.
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Martin G
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I just ignored it, seems like a gimmick.
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D a v i d B u r k e y
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Fort Smith
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I plan on still using the number of cards left in the draw deck as a good way of scoring the game—the more left in the deck if I win, the better my score. I am looking forward to having the new expansion—they put in my two favorites to start with.
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Bill Cook
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SaltyHorse wrote:

Would love to read your opinions.


Ick. You get through the eight door and escape, or you are trapped forever. Nothing else matters.
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James J
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It definitely changed how I played when I tried to score a lot of points (at least, after I read the rules for scoring it did, because to begin with I had no clue how I was being scored).

When playing for points you're encouraged to not use keys to open doors (because opening the door using 3 in the row gives more points than the key opening the door). You're also encouraged to not use 'crossover cards' when that's obviously the best choice since you get a pretty huge chunk of points from only playing sets of 3 (i.e. never using a red moon to crossover from sun-moon-sun green to sun-moon-sun blue).

I don't like the scoring system and now that you've pointed out the expansions essentially just give you more points it makes it even more pointless to care about.

I'm a bit mixed about the timer. It's obviously better and more skilful to be able to think quickly, but it also detracts from my games because the animations are still a bit weird and hard to get 'right'.
 
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Heather C.
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I wish they would have just ranked people based on their win ratio... I've been trying to get better and better scores because it doesn't matter if it's a solo game or not, I'm competitive. The thing is, this new scoring system doesn't favor my usual win strategies so my win ratio has a taken a small dip. Not sure which I care about more, win ratio or a good score.
 
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Frazer Eden
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settlerdave wrote:
I plan on still using the number of cards left in the draw deck as a good way of scoring the game—the more left in the deck if I win, the better my score. I am looking forward to having the new expansion—they put in my two favorites to start with.


This is the way I "Score" my games
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NY DrPepper
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I do not like the new scoring. I just like to try to beat the game so improving my win percentage and having more cards left over will remain my scoring method of choice. I miss immediately seeing my win percentage immediately pop up after every single game played.

The new scoring, perhaps with contributions from the faster shuffling,have changed this from a relaxing with-a-bit-of-excitement-at-the-end kind of game to a hurry up, stress, compare myself to other people who are playing with different cards kind of game. The combined scoring what different cards (expansions)is really dumb.

I hope the next revision allows me to turn off the speed shuffling and the new scoring as the previous version filled the niche for short, some thinking, solo gaming with the scoring being only against the game and myself type of online game for me.

I still love the game (base).
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Ori Avtalion
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If anyone's interested, here's a detailed review and critique of the scoring system by a very experienced player:
http://www.appunwrapper.com/2017/07/07/some-thoughts-on-onir...
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Paul Atredis
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Ive played a ton of Onirim. excluding the app version, where im at almost 100 plays (One or two games a night before bed.), Ive logged 178 total games, with 89 wins. Each win is a distinct set of expansions as I try to beat them all (currently at 89/513, 17.35% complete). These are the stats I am really intrested in as I can see how well im doing, how far ive come, and how hard some expansions are for me as I track win percentage for each numerical set ( 3 expansions, 2 expansions) and individual expansions. For example, the Towers is by far my best expansion so far, winning 71.05% of the games that I have it included in. To me, the scoring in the app does two things. It changes the pace of the game, since I now know that I am being timed. It is really obvious that I am being timed because the app is faster now. Im not a huge fan of that aspect, as I really enjoy thinking about my choices but hate feeling rushed. This also gives a false sense of accomplisment I think. A high score is based off of speed, using certain cards in certain ways, and penalizes you for switching colors partway through a set which is a huge part of this game. It rewards luck i think, and penalizes good gameplay. I would ignore it completly, but after each game you see the leaderboard and where you stand, and I do want to see my name at the top of that list someday. If they took the scoring out, I would be a happy camper. Solo game does not really need a ranking system. Heres to the remaining 424 combinations I need to beat.
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Massimo B.
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I love the game, to the point that about a year ago I developed my own javascript version (with all 7 expansions that can be freely mixed) and I have been using that to complete my personal Onirim campaign: get a win with every possible combination of expansion (still working on it but not far from finishing).
The app is great, I hope they will add all the expansions so I will repeat the campaign there, and the only thing I dislike is the new scoring system, which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it was added beacuse they feel that nowadays every app needs some kind of leaderboard, and the 'remaining cards' number doesn't have enough variance. I don't like the scoring system but I have found that I can easily and completely ignore it, so it's not really a problem for me.
I don't think the 'number of remaining cards' is a good score either: it's just a measure of luck and not of skill. Play enough games and sooner or later you will get a game where everything falls just right and you win leaving a ton of cards, no skill in that.
The only thing that matters is the win ratio and I really would like to have separated win ratio stats for the different combinations of expansions.
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Rex Moore
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I have no interest in the scoring system. Cards remaining or time of game is interesting, but in no way reflects ability.

However (), I did try 4 or 5 times to see how quickly I could beat the base game. Here's my best... 1:24:





I think sub-one minute is possible, but a lot of things would have to fall into place!
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Paul Atredis
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MaBi wrote:
I love the game, to the point that about a year ago I developed my own javascript version (with all 7 expansions that can be freely mixed) and I have been using that to complete my personal Onirim campaign: get a win with every possible combination of expansion (still working on it but not far from finishing).
The app is great, I hope they will add all the expansions so I will repeat the campaign there, and the only thing I dislike is the new scoring system, which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it was added beacuse they feel that nowadays every app needs some kind of leaderboard, and the 'remaining cards' number doesn't have enough variance. I don't like the scoring system but I have found that I can easily and completely ignore it, so it's not really a problem for me.
I don't think the 'number of remaining cards' is a good score either: it's just a measure of luck and not of skill. Play enough games and sooner or later you will get a game where everything falls just right and you win leaving a ton of cards, no skill in that.
The only thing that matters is the win ratio and I really would like to have separated win ratio stats for the different combinations of expansions.




7 Expansions? Easy mode good sir, there are 2 more expansions you are missing. Good luck on your campaign either way, its a fun play through, and one that is certainly wearing my cards out in a satisfying way.

Additionally, if you are looking for individualized stats, check out my Excel based spreadsheet in the files section, it breaks it down pretty well. wins with an expansion included, wins for number of expansions included.
 
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Ori Avtalion
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Here's Gil Hova's take: https://gil.hova.net/2017/07/17/a-study-of-digital-onirims-s...
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Will Breidenstein
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I couldn't agree more about the leader board, high score just doesn't seem to be the most accurate way of determining the "leader".
 
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Joseph Beguhl
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I personally enjoy the scoring. I got to know Onirim through the app first so I liked it right away. I like creating a long chain of sets and watching the score really add up quickly.

I also like the achievements section. Some are very easy to get, while some are really challenging, like resolving nightmares using doors only and still winning the game.
 
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James J
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wxbadger wrote:
I personally enjoy the scoring. I got to know Onirim through the app first so I liked it right away. I like creating a long chain of sets and watching the score really add up quickly.

I also like the achievements section. Some are very easy to get, while some are really challenging, like resolving nightmares using doors only and still winning the game.


But that's like the best way to get a high score, so surely the hard route to winning shouldn't be rewarded so highly...
 
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