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Subject: Room: Huntig +2 Food (Maintenance 3) rss

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davide musci
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Why should I build this room? I do not understand the reason
 
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Eduardo Cruz
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Victory points for room's occupancy and for the survivors inside it.
 
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Jack Liu
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1 hunt is a net -1 food but let's you house 3 people.

Even better with more hunting bonuses
 
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Désirée Greverud
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in other words, the room is useless except in the very last round simply to hold people. If you wind up with this among your initial 6, toss it. If you had even worse options and wind up with this among your 4, don't build it except in the last night cycle at the end of the game, just to have a place to move some survivors to.
 
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Greg O.
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this room is as useful as any other one, EVERY room will always cost you more than the bonus it brings, but allows you to gain 3 victory points with the survivors and other points for filled rooms at the end, in addition to the ingame bonus it brings.
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Désirée Greverud
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ahuacatl wrote:
this room is as useful as any other one, EVERY room will always cost you more than the bonus it brings, but allows you to gain 3 victory points with the survivors and other points for filled rooms at the end, in addition to the ingame bonus it brings.

so no reason to build or staff it except in the last round, as I said. It's "benefit" (the thing you get over it's costs) is end game points and space for survivors. otherwise, the room, during the game, is a net loss. The bonus the room gives you doesn't even cover it's own cost. losing at least 1 food every turn for no benefit during game just doesn't make sense (and yikes, imagine a round where you can't/don't hunt!). If the room worked for every hunt (not just one per round) or only cost 2, then it would be worth building.

Edit: I forgot the room already has a build cost as well. so you are losing 3 resources as well. This is made up for by having space for survivors but paying 3 resources and 6-18 food (if you build it first round) for one room and 3 survivors? you might as well just kick yourself in the face
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davide musci
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ahuacatl wrote:
this room is as useful as any other one, EVERY room will always cost you more than the bonus it brings, but allows you to gain 3 victory points with the survivors and other points for filled rooms at the end, in addition to the ingame bonus it brings.


I do not agree. Other rooms give clear bonuses. 4 ammunition, ignore events, discounts on construction. This room is not useful at all, except in the final 3 omini.
 
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Paul Gipson
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davejustin wrote:
ahuacatl wrote:
this room is as useful as any other one, EVERY room will always cost you more than the bonus it brings, but allows you to gain 3 victory points with the survivors and other points for filled rooms at the end, in addition to the ingame bonus it brings.


I do not agree. Other rooms give clear bonuses. 4 ammunition, ignore events, discounts on construction. This room is not useful at all, except in the final 3 omini.


Think about it from the economic concept of "Opportunity Cost." Which is greatly mitigated by this room. If you build another room, that has 3 people in it, you are still going to have to feed them. However, you are not going to get a +2 bonus when hunting food to do so. This room, is simply a place to put people, and well as get a room for the room victory points, so it could potentially be worth a little more than 3 points at the end.

I would agree though, it would only be in very few situations that I would build this room. If it housed 4 people instead of 3, it would be more worth it.

And to make sure I am understanding it, and the mechanics for all the rooms, you can only use their abilities once per day, correct? So this doesn't apply to all hunts done, but only one hunt done, correct?
 
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davide musci
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exactly, once per day
 
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Paul Gipson
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frotes wrote:
1 hunt is a net -1 food but let's you house 3 people.

Even better with more hunting bonuses


Yeah, in a game of scarce resources, I guess one of the misleading "scarce resource" is your actions themselves, so the more efficient you can make each action, the better. If you can hunt once and get much more, it may save you from having to hunt more in the future, being able to use those actions elsewhere.

You would definitely need to combine this with some equipment and common animal bonuses.
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Jack Liu
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TaylonMoon wrote:
frotes wrote:
1 hunt is a net -1 food but let's you house 3 people.

Even better with more hunting bonuses


Yeah, in a game of scarce resources, I guess one of the misleading "scarce resource" is your actions themselves, so the more efficient you can make each action, the better. If you can hunt once and get much more, it may save you from having to hunt more in the future, being able to use those actions elsewhere.

You would definitely need to combine this with some equipment and common animal bonuses.


For sure. I think Hunting is key in this game since you need the food to sustain a high population shelter which seems to give the most payout. Equipment & Rooms that add to 1 action to make it incredibly efficient is the key to this game and it goes doubly so for hunting. It's also one of the actions that is almost unblockable by opponents since there are so many hunting grounds
 
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Greg O.
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davejustin wrote:
ahuacatl wrote:
this room is as useful as any other one, EVERY room will always cost you more than the bonus it brings, but allows you to gain 3 victory points with the survivors and other points for filled rooms at the end, in addition to the ingame bonus it brings.


I do not agree. Other rooms give clear bonuses. 4 ammunition, ignore events, discounts on construction. This room is not useful at all, except in the final 3 omini.


in this game, 1 food/water is equal to 1.5 resources in terms of balancing.
so, when a room gives you a -2 materials discount on construction and costs you 2 foods, that's a loss of 1 (2 food = 3 materials but you only have a discount of 2 materials).
That's the same thing for the room giving you +2 food when hunting, you have a loss of 1 food/1.5 materials but food is more precious and hard to obtain (hence the 0.5 loss differencial).

I don't know if it's understandable this way ?
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Jack Liu
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That's an interesting way to calculate the rooms

I feel like there are some odd balls then since the Event reduction rooms lows resources/ammo by 2 but commodity by 1 (.5 gain for resources)

Also taking water is valued higher than taking resources (even with the 1 micro chip investment). 4.5 for 3 water - 1 chip = 3.5 where as 3 actions on resources is just 3. High value if you use 4 or 5 actions

Equipment that gives water or food slightly worst than equipment that gives 2 resources but then it requires you to be gathering at least 1 resource usually.
 
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Lee Fisher
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Note that Greg is the designer so has presumably spent time on this math
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Greg O.
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frotes wrote:
That's an interesting way to calculate the rooms

I feel like there are some odd balls then since the Event reduction rooms lows resources/ammo by 2 but commodity by 1 (.5 gain for resources)

Also taking water is valued higher than taking resources (even with the 1 micro chip investment). 4.5 for 3 water - 1 chip = 3.5 where as 3 actions on resources is just 3. High value if you use 4 or 5 actions

Equipment that gives water or food slightly worst than equipment that gives 2 resources but then it requires you to be gathering at least 1 resource usually.


i give you the overall base for balancing, then depending on the rooms and their "easyness to use each turn" there are minor adjustments.
For instance, the room giving events reduction will be harder to use at every single turn than some other ones. Its main purpose is to spare you 2 materials, but we added some more flexibility by also allowing to spare 1 food if necessary, even if the net gain is lower than 2 materials.
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Greg O.
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frotes wrote:


Also taking water is valued higher than taking resources (even with the 1 micro chip investment). 4.5 for 3 water - 1 chip = 3.5 where as 3 actions on resources is just 3. High value if you use 4 or 5 actions


That's made on purpose, i wanted the Dam to be a place of high tension, water being the more valuable resource of the game (for its flexibility).
you will always get more water than food with a given hero, but you need to have a chip first, and the Dam often attracts a lot of opponents (conducting to scarcities and pressure).
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Désirée Greverud
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none of this discussion disputes the fact that this room is not worth building until the last round. During the game, it is a net loss. (so are other rooms, this one most pronounced). It highlights the imbalance between rooms and equipment. Equipment has a 1 time investment and them provides a cost-free bonus each turn plus end game points. Rooms have a cost, plus a per turn cost and give a bonus that generally doesn't cover the per turn cost. That they give points (marginally more than equipment) at the end means they are worthless in game until the last round unlike equipment which is valuable from day 1. For a room to have value during the game, it needs to provide a bonus over it's cost.

I fear the designer plays the way he'd like the game to be played rather than for maximum efficiency.
 
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Jack Liu
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DragonsDream wrote:
none of this discussion disputes the fact that this room is not worth building until the last round. During the game, it is a net loss. (so are other rooms, this one most pronounced). It highlights the imbalance between rooms and equipment. Equipment has a 1 time investment and them provides a cost-free bonus each turn plus end game points. Rooms have a cost, plus a per turn cost and give a bonus that generally doesn't cover the per turn cost. That they give points (marginally more than equipment) at the end means they are worthless in game until the last round unlike equipment which is valuable from day 1. For a room to have value during the game, it needs to provide a bonus over it's cost.

I fear the designer plays the way he'd like the game to be played rather than for maximum efficiency.


I agree, equipment that gives 2 resources or 1 food seems too good. Especially since the matching ones tend to combo off going to the same location so not only do you get double equipment benefit, but also extra 1vp from matching them


Imo this room should not have been 1 time use (like the one that gives resources for searching city and finding nothing)

That way if you manage to hunt twice a turn, it can be a net 1.
(We had made this mistake about room in our first game and played it that way, I had the room and used it to hunt twice a round for 4 food in 2 of the 6 rounds. I don't think anyone felt it was broken this way and it's very hard to hunt twice a round)
 
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Désirée Greverud
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frotes wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
none of this discussion disputes the fact that this room is not worth building until the last round. During the game, it is a net loss. (so are other rooms, this one most pronounced). It highlights the imbalance between rooms and equipment. Equipment has a 1 time investment and them provides a cost-free bonus each turn plus end game points. Rooms have a cost, plus a per turn cost and give a bonus that generally doesn't cover the per turn cost. That they give points (marginally more than equipment) at the end means they are worthless in game until the last round unlike equipment which is valuable from day 1. For a room to have value during the game, it needs to provide a bonus over it's cost.

I fear the designer plays the way he'd like the game to be played rather than for maximum efficiency.


I agree, equipment that gives 2 resources or 1 food seems too good. Especially since the matching ones tend to combo off going to the same location so not only do you get double equipment benefit, but also extra 1vp from matching them


Imo this room should not have been 1 time use (like the one that gives resources for searching city and finding nothing)

That way if you manage to hunt twice a turn, it can be a net 1.
(We had made this mistake about room in our first game and played it that way, I had the room and used it to hunt twice a round for 4 food in 2 of the 6 rounds. I don't think anyone felt it was broken this way and it's very hard to hunt twice a round)

will always play this as "any hunting" as opposed to once per day. otherwise, I might as well just leave it in the box
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Mark Watson
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DragonsDream wrote:
in other words, the room is useless except in the very last round simply to hold people.


If you're able to specialise in a hunting strategy space tends to be more scarce than food by the mid game. Being able to store three survivors for what is effectively one cost can be quite useful. Certainly I'd much rather build the room on turn three than be throwing away meat through lack of space in the airlock.
 
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Désirée Greverud
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Archonsod wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
in other words, the room is useless except in the very last round simply to hold people.


If you're able to specialise in a hunting strategy space tends to be more scarce than food by the mid game. Being able to store three survivors for what is effectively one cost can be quite useful. Certainly I'd much rather build the room on turn three than be throwing away meat through lack of space in the airlock.
then you would be better off building a room that only costs 1 food per turn and still holds 3 people, if "people storage" is it's only value
 
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Mark Watson
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Assuming I have another room to build that only costs 1 food per turn, sure.

 
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George
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I don't mind this Hunting room as there are plenty of other rooms that don't really pay for themselves either. The whole game is set up that the rooms give the most points overall but are a liability.

However, I do find it strange that the rooms with 4 survivors are the ones that cost only 1 Maintenance. I would think it should actually be flipped and the expensive 3 maintenance rooms would get the extra survivor point.

The extra survivor does take a little more effort to activate, so maybe that is the thinking in giving 4 survivors to the easier 1 maintenance rooms... but to me the extra point seems like the bigger advantage. When you compare the Hunting +1 (1 maintenance) to the Hunting +2 (3 maintenance) it seems like the Hunting +2 is the one that should score the extra point, not the easier Hunting +1.
 
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davide musci
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Is this room comparable to you? Is 100 times better


Add 1 Survivor to this Room (max 8)
Each turn, you may add 1 Survivor from the general reserve to this Room. This Survivor cannot be moved from this Room. This is the only Room that can house more Survivors than the spaces available, up to a maximum of 8.
 
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Jack Liu
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Extra survivor is better for endgame scoring but 1 less survivor requirement to activate the room's ability can be more handly the first half of the game

Usually you want your first 3 rooms to be working asap then go for VPs on the rest
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