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Subject: Children as young as 10 being legally married in the US. rss

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Blue Mountain
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This is shocking and the type of thing I'd expect from countries like Afghanistan.

I'm struggling to believe it is true.

http://apps.frontline.org/child-marriage-by-the-numbers/


"The youngest children to marry were three 10-year-old girls in Tennessee in 2001, who were married to men ages 24, 25 and 31, according to state data. The youngest groom was an 11-year-old boy, also in Tennessee, who married a 27-year-old woman in 2006."
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BlueMountain wrote:
I'm struggling to believe it is true.
I am as surprised as you. Messed up.
 
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J J
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But where are the rantings about their "race" and / or religion? How should I know to get worked up about this or not?
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Trey Chambers
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Texas just banned marriages until the age of 18 to curtail this.

Which is odd, considering the age of consent is 17 here.
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Mindy G
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Here's a companion piece about the fight to change the laws:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/in-fight-over-chil...
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David Dearlove
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Koldfoot wrote:
Pointing out what the righteously indignant don't want to hear, but those statistics are for marriage licenses, not marriages.

State laws vary, but generally the courts need to be involved before young uns can get a marriage license. After you weed out the 16 and 17 year olds, and the kids who were about the same age who got married (which is a number not presented in the article), the number is microscopic (remember the figures span a decade or more).

Furthermore, since judges are involved, it stands to reason that numerous cases probably make sense for reasons unknown to us. Ie girls from Muslim countries where women are treated like cattle. Perhaps they are under a Saudi court order to return home to their father who basically owns them until they are married. Our state dept, after all, does have a record of enforcing repugnant Saudi court orders.

Edit: thought of this scenario: insurance loophole: kids parents have no health insurance. A spouse can be added immediately in most cases. Since the kid still has living parents he could not be adopted into a family with insurance. Marriage = coverage in that situation.

Nice racism here.
Why do you assume marriages in Tennessee are not natives?
 
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Mike Stiles
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I didn't read the story, how often does it actually happen? One of the main exports of the US is listicles of funny or awful outdated laws that are still on the books.
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David Dearlove
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Koldfoot wrote:
windsagio wrote:
I didn't read the story, how often does it actually happen? One of the main exports of the US is listicles of funny or awful outdated laws that are still on the books.


Under 15 amounted to a few dozen instances over an unclear number of years which varied from state to state.

Big problem.

As problems go, it's right up there with posting before reading.

So what level of appalling is OK with you?
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David Dearlove
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Koldfoot wrote:
1200 instances of forced, underage marriages every year is quite appalling.

And which jurisdictions are that in? The "few dozen" are in the USA which is a western democracy.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Your google isn't working?

It's a rhetorical question which is wya he answered.
 
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Blue Mountain
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Koldfoot wrote:
Pointing out what the righteously indignant don't want to hear, but those statistics are for marriage licenses, not marriages.

State laws vary, but generally the courts need to be involved before young uns can get a marriage license. After you weed out the 16 and 17 year olds, and the kids who were about the same age who got married (which is a number not presented in the article), the number is microscopic (remember the figures span a decade or more).

Furthermore, since judges are involved, it stands to reason that numerous cases probably make sense for reasons unknown to us. Ie girls from Muslim countries where women are treated like cattle. Perhaps they are under a Saudi court order to return home to their father who basically owns them until they are married. Our state dept, after all, does have a record of enforcing repugnant Saudi court orders.

Edit: thought of this scenario: insurance loophole: kids parents have no health insurance. A spouse can be added immediately in most cases. Since the kid still has living parents he could not be adopted into a family with insurance. Marriage = coverage in that situation.
It is child abuse.
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Alexandre P.
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Texas just banned marriages until the age of 18 to curtail this.

Which is odd, considering the age of consent is 17 here.


What do you find odd ? The fact that 2 teenagers can have sex together before they can marry ?
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David Dearlove
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Koldfoot wrote:
.... laughlaugh

It is you doing the assuming, as usual.

I'm trying to present instances where it makes sense on some level.

It doesn't. why try?
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Blue Mountain
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JasonJ0 wrote:
But where are the rantings about their "race" and / or religion? How should I know to get worked up about this or not?


https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/35680951/unchained-at-last...

Crazy Christians had 11 year old girl in Florida legally married off to her rapist. She went on to have a heap of children.

It's institutional support for child rape. It's absolutely unbelievable that this occurs. All the adults involved, including the public servants, belong in prison.

From reading a few articles now it appears to be Christian groups and politicians trying to keep the child abuse legal ..... for religious reasons of course.
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Donald
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Koldfoot wrote:
Our state dept, after all, does have a record of enforcing repugnant Saudi court orders.


My google works.

There is currently no federal law regarding the enforcement of judgments from foreign countries. In 2006 the American Law Institute issued a report entitled “Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Judgments: Analysis and Proposed Federal Statute.” The report was transmitted to Congress, but Congress has taken no action. (It should be noted this author strenuously objected to the reciprocity requirement in the report.) In the current political climate, action is viewed as unlikely by this author.

Enforcement of judgments issued by foreign courts in the United States is governed by the laws of the states. Enforcement cannot be accomplished by means of letters rogatory in the United States. Under U.S. law, an individual seeking to enforce a foreign judgment, decree or order in this country must file suit before a competent court. The court will determine whether to give effect to the foreign judgment.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is not a party to the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, nor are there any international or bilateral treaties in force between Saudi Arabia and the United States dealing with international parental child abduction.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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I'm convinced 10 year old girls getting married in the US happens. And that is appalling except in the most contrived of circumstances (such as Koldfoot's insurance hypothetical above). One marriage, against the will or involving sex at 10 years old, is too many.

However, after reading articles such as this one, I'm also convinced that the problem is overstated on a regular basis.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/opinion/americas-child-ma...

Note the correction at the very bottom of the article.

Quote:
An Op-Ed essay on Oct. 14, about child marriage in the United States, included incorrect information about such marriages based on data provided by the New Jersey Center for Health Statistics. The article described incorrectly a marriage in New Jersey in 2006 and another one in 1996. In the 2006 marriage the groom was 18, not 10, while in the 1996 marriage the bride was 22, not 12. The article also included incorrect figures for the total number of children married in New Jersey from 1995 to 2012. There were 3,481 such children, not 3,499. Of those children, 163 were between the ages of 13 and 15, not 178 between 10 and 15. The errors came to light recently when the writer questioned the center’s data.
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Chad Ellis
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Texas just banned marriages until the age of 18 to curtail this.

Which is odd, considering the age of consent is 17 here.


I don't think that's particularly odd -- it's normal to have different consent ages for different things. It seems pretty natural to me to believe that someone is old enough to have decision-rights over sex before they are about getting married.
 
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Chad Ellis
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
.... laughlaugh

It is you doing the assuming, as usual.

I'm trying to present instances where it makes sense on some level.

It doesn't. why try?


It can make sense (to me at least) only in areas where marriage is being used for some specific purpose -- and where the plan is not to consummate and to annul/divorce at a later date so the child can go on with his or her life.

Koldfoot is stretching, but his stretches are in that direction -- like what if the only way to keep a child in the states was for him or her to be married? I could imagine a world in which I'd marry an orphan to give him/her access to healthcare insurance.

I'm highly skeptical that these are what's actually happening, though -- I think if they were it's likely that we'd be hearing about it.
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Isaac Citrom
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I find the report pretty useless without a wide anthropological aspect.

I'm guessing that the majority of the distasteful cases are in religious groups. What comes to mind are Muslims, that sect of Mormons, some sect of "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews, and small sects of fundamentalist Christians.

That, combined with cultural components, such as tribalism; that is, from which countries people came from.

Like several people here, I too wash away the 16 and 17 year olds, who, for example, got pregnant and are trying to salvage the situation.

No matter what is said, I wholly disagree that there is ever a reason to marry a child, 10 years old. But, I do understand how this can happen with the state of judges' thinking. In Montreal, a man sodomized a young girl. In the judge's sentencing, she allowed that the felon didn't compromise the child's virginity (!). Both were Muslim and that is supremely important in their culture(s). A Western judge should not be considering Sharia or any other cultural imperatives. I believe it's the same sort of thinking that can get a judge to consider it's OK to marry a 10 year old child.
.
 
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Damian
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Koldfoot wrote:
No one has bothered to google "1200 forced underage marriages"?

None of the results refer to 1,200 as an annual number. The only result with that number refers to Massachusetts from 2000-2014.

Quote:
west yorkshire 8 year old married

Nothing about 1,200 cases a year there either. The "forced marriage unit" dealt with 1,220 cases in 2015 but 44% of those involved marriages in Pakistan and just 14% involved marriages in the UK.

Maybe you could just come right out and tell us.
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David Dearlove
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
.... laughlaugh

It is you doing the assuming, as usual.

I'm trying to present instances where it makes sense on some level.

It doesn't. why try?


It can make sense (to me at least) only in areas where marriage is being used for some specific purpose -- and where the plan is not to consummate and to annul/divorce at a later date so the child can go on with his or her life.

Koldfoot is stretching, but his stretches are in that direction -- like what if the only way to keep a child in the states was for him or her to be married? I could imagine a world in which I'd marry an orphan to give him/her access to healthcare insurance.

I'm highly skeptical that these are what's actually happening, though -- I think if they were it's likely that we'd be hearing about it.

These cases would reflect basic wrongness in the USA system. Trying to get round them with immorality can only be immoral.
 
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David Dearlove
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damiangerous wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
No one has bothered to google "1200 forced underage marriages"?

None of the results refer to 1,200 as an annual number. The only result with that number refers to Massachusetts from 2000-2014.

Quote:
west yorkshire 8 year old married

Nothing about 1,200 cases a year there either. The "forced marriage unit" dealt with 1,220 cases in 2015 but 44% of those involved marriages in Pakistan and just 14% involved marriages in the UK.

Maybe you could just come right out and tell us.

Google searches vary from person to person. I got a story from the Metro lifted straight from the Guardian. There was an eight year old boy who was going to be taken to Pakistan for a forced marriage but was stopped. Forced marriage amongst sections of the Pakistani community is a problem here. It is hard to stop people going abroad, especially as a lot are dual nationals.
 
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David Dearlove
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isaacc wrote:

I find the report pretty useless without a wide anthropological aspect.

I'm guessing that the majority of the distasteful cases are in religious groups. What comes to mind are Muslims, that sect of Mormons, some sect of "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews, and small sects of fundamentalist Christians.

That, combined with cultural components, such as tribalism; that is, from which countries people came from.

Like several people here, I too wash away the 16 and 17 year olds, who, for example, got pregnant and are trying to salvage the situation.

No matter what is said, I wholly disagree that there is ever a reason to marry a child, 10 years old. But, I do understand how this can happen with the state of judges' thinking. In Montreal, a man sodomized a young girl. In the judge's sentencing, she allowed that the felon didn't compromise the child's virginity (!). Both were Muslim and that is supremely important in their culture(s). A Western judge should not be considering Sharia or any other cultural imperatives. I believe it's the same sort of thinking that can get a judge to consider it's OK to marry a 10 year old child.
.

I could find this googling. Citation please.
 
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Damian
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DavidDearlove wrote:
isaacc wrote:

I find the report pretty useless without a wide anthropological aspect.

I'm guessing that the majority of the distasteful cases are in religious groups. What comes to mind are Muslims, that sect of Mormons, some sect of "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews, and small sects of fundamentalist Christians.

That, combined with cultural components, such as tribalism; that is, from which countries people came from.

Like several people here, I too wash away the 16 and 17 year olds, who, for example, got pregnant and are trying to salvage the situation.

No matter what is said, I wholly disagree that there is ever a reason to marry a child, 10 years old. But, I do understand how this can happen with the state of judges' thinking. In Montreal, a man sodomized a young girl. In the judge's sentencing, she allowed that the felon didn't compromise the child's virginity (!). Both were Muslim and that is supremely important in their culture(s). A Western judge should not be considering Sharia or any other cultural imperatives. I believe it's the same sort of thinking that can get a judge to consider it's OK to marry a 10 year old child.
.

I could find this googling. Citation please.

He must be an Ann Landers fan. The first result for me is a 1994 column supposedly from a Sarasota, FL news clipping. It does seem to have happened in 1994. Except that the judge was not a Muslim nor had any particular knowledge of Muslim culture, the Muslim community was outraged that she perpetuated false stereotypes, and the Judge was professionally investigated (though apparently is still a judge).

https://books.google.com/books?id=y62uDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&lpg=...
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Khalid Shabazz
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JasonJ0 wrote:
But where are the rantings about their "race" and / or religion? How should I know to get worked up about this or not?

You only needed to wait a bit.

Step 1. Identify a problem
Step 2. Fight the problem
Step 2. Blame a group of people for the problem
Step 3. Feel good about having fought a problem
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