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Subject: Battle Axe AOE + Ecarus Cleave = 2x AOE? rss

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Deft Titan
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I'm trying to reason through this...


Ecarus has Cleave = next melee weapon attack may hit up to two enemies in same area.

and he has the Battle Axe equipped, which has bolt triggered AoE{0}

Ecarus is engaged with three enemies in his area.
He uses Cleave as an Action.
He attacks one engaged enemy as target 1 with Battle Axe and triggers AoE{0}, and then he chooses a 2nd target to also take the attack and resolve Cleave.

I think this attack will hit all 3 enemies twice.
So does it work like this?
1) resolve original attack against enemy number 1
2) resolve AoE from attack against enemy 2 and 3
3) original copy of attack from cleave hits enemy number 2, including AoE triggered
4) resolve AoE from cleave copy attack against enemy 1 and 3

So he's effectively hitting 3 enemies, twice each, for a total of six attacks? The only thing I can think of that won't let me do this, is that a target can't be affected by the same status from the same effect. (In this case, AoE), but AoE resolves itself before it hits again, so it's really never stacking on itself. Ugh, just gave myself a headache.

Sorry, confusing, I know, but it seems to work. Even more overpowered with Expert equipped as a general talent.

Thoughts? Disputes? Confirmation?

 
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Kevin John
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AOE just means that your attack is affecting all enemies in the AOE area.
Cleave lets you choose two enemies in the same area to be affected by the same attack.

They don't stack. If you roll AOE, Cleave's effect is still happening by default, not in addition to. So in essence you didn't need to activate it (if you could somehow predict that you would get a lightning bolt to activate AOE, that is).
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Deft Titan
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kevinjohn3d wrote:
AOE just means that your attack is affecting all enemies in the AOE area.
Cleave lets you choose two enemies in the same area to be affected by the same attack.

They don't stack. If you roll AOE, Cleave's effect is still happening by default, not in addition to.


... but what are you using as a basis for them not stacking?
 
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Kevin John
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DeftTitan wrote:
kevinjohn3d wrote:
AOE just means that your attack is affecting all enemies in the AOE area.
Cleave lets you choose two enemies in the same area to be affected by the same attack.

They don't stack. If you roll AOE, Cleave's effect is still happening by default, not in addition to.


... but what are you using as a basis for them not stacking?


The rulebook. It states that AOE "...allows an attack or effect to affect not only the primary target, but all other targets of the same faction in the same area..."
You aren't making multiple attacks, you are making one attack and that attack is affecting multiple enemies. Cleave allows you to do the same thing but on a more limited scope.

So nothing in AOE or Cleave allows you to do multiple attacks, it's still just one attack. The only difference is the number of targets it affects.
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Kamen Hristov
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I really doubt it. I interpret Cleave to be working as an "add one additional target to your attack", i.e. limited AoE by itself. And AoE proper just expands on that, removing the limit of targets.

I see where you come from, but I really think that the intent is the straightforward:
1) trigger Cleave to add 1 valid target in [0] to the attack
2) roll your attack dice
3) (if you opt to) trigger AoE to add all valid targets in [0] to the attack, effectively overruling Cleave
4) resolve the attack results against all affected enemies in whatever order you like.
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Deft Titan
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If for example, it wasn't AOE, but a K.O. effect, cleave would hit both enemies and K.O. them both.

This is the logic I applied to the cleave +AoE - cleave hits both enemies, and then AoE procs each time.

But I do see the logic in AoE overruling Cleave. This is the nature of my original question.

The more I think about it, there's nothing firm that says AoE overrules/extends Cleave, but if there's an argument against this, it's in the golden rules: A character [enemy] cannot gain the same ... penalty from the same effect twice.

In my scenario, on 1 roll... AoE would penalize each enemy twice. It's not a gained effect, but I think it's the same gist.

 
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Kand Affar
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The combat has one attack phase and one defense phase, so the same attack can't damage the same enemy more than once. Your method has the attacker roll the hit dice once and each defender rolling defense dice twice, so it doesn't work.

Ecarus uses Cleave.
Ecarus declares attack and selects targets.
Attack Phase:
1. Roll die
2. Use bolt:AOE, expanding attack from 2 to all targets.
3. Summarize hits and pass to defense.

Defense Phase, at end apply damage.

The end result is that battle-axe probably isn't the best weapon for someone with Cleave.

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Kevin John
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DeftTitan wrote:


If for example, it wasn't AOE, but a K.O. effect, cleave would hit both enemies and K.O. them both.

This is the logic I applied to the cleave +AoE - cleave hits both enemies, and then AoE procs each time.

But I do see the logic in AoE overruling Cleave. This is the nature of my original question.

The more I think about it, there's nothing firm that says AoE overrules/extends Cleave, but if there's an argument against this, it's in the golden rules: A character [enemy] cannot gain the same ... penalty from the same effect twice.

In my scenario, on 1 roll... AoE would penalize each enemy twice. It's not a gained effect, but I think it's the same gist.



I think the confusion comes from the idea that you're inflicting AOE on the enemies. AOE isn't a status you can inflict like a body condition or a critical. It only affects the targeting and that's it. When you activate AOE you are merely affecting every target in AOE range with your attack instead of just your primary target. Multiple instances of AOE on the same attack would do nothing as the targets of the 1 attack are already set after the first AOE activation.

Imagine that you have two items or powers that grant you AOE. You can activate them both on the same attack but it wouldn't give you a free attack on all the enemies again. It only affects targeting!

Edit: Excellent point Cozar, the phases of combat proves it as well.
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Deft Titan
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Cozar wrote:
The combat has one attack phase and one defense phase, so the same attack can't damage the same enemy more than once. Your method has the attacker roll the hit dice once and each defender rolling defense dice twice, so it doesn't work.

Ecarus uses Cleave.
Ecarus declares attack and selects targets.
Attack Phase:
1. Roll die
2. Use bolt:AOE, expanding attack from 2 to all targets.
3. Summarize hits and pass to defense.

Defense Phase, at end apply damage.

The end result is that battle-axe probably isn't the best weapon for someone with Cleave.




Thank you!!! Brilliant call out!

Yes, excellent points by everyone in the thread, but this is really what makes most sense to me.
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