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Subject: Just sayin': ratings do matter... rss

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JonMichael Rasmus
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http://www.vulture.com/2017/07/orphan-black-board-games-rune...

Quote:
Gloomhaven is one of the hottest new titles of 2017, ranking fourth on Boardgamegeek’s global list of the highest-rated board games (by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games) ever published, and the first edition sold out so fast that aftermarket copies are listed online for $200


Emphasis mine.

If we are going to have ratings, they will be used especially by people who may or may not understand what they mean. This is why conversations about the quality of ratings and the inputs being used matters. Being dismissive of those conversations is counterproductive, to my mind.

</rant>
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Bryan Thunkd
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jmsr525 wrote:
http://www.vulture.com/2017/07/orphan-black-board-games-rune...

Quote:
Gloomhaven is one of the hottest new titles of 2017, ranking fourth on Boardgamegeek’s global list of the highest-rated board games (by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games) ever published, and the first edition sold out so fast that aftermarket copies are listed online for $200


Emphasis mine.

If we are going to have ratings, they will be used especially by people who may or may not understand what they mean. This is why conversations about the quality of ratings and the inputs being used matters. Being dismissive of those conversations is counterproductive, to my mind.

</rant>
I'm confused... was the ranking used incorrectly in your opinion?
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JPotter
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One passing mention in a long story about games being used in a TV show.

Didn't even bother making any kind of assumption about the ranking. Or assert any (mis)interpretation of it.

And the jerks didn't even bother linking to BGG. Common courtesy, please.


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mortego
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Here's the BGG Rating Rubric:

10 Outstanding – will always enjoy playing
9 Excellent – very much enjoy playing
8 Very good – enjoy playing and would suggest it
7 Good – usually willing to play
6 Okay – will play it if in the mood
5 Mediocre – take it or leave it
4 Not so good – but could play again
3 Bad – likely won’t play this again
2 Very bad – won’t play ever again
1 Awful – defies game description

I cannot speak for everyone but I sure can understand how to use this.

If BGG were to use use a different rating system such taking into account all the things that are important to some folks like depth of play, how cool the minis look and whatever else, I would be all for it,....maybe.

But for now, we have the one I listed. I like it.
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Ryan
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Does it seem productive to you to have these conversations on a weekly (or shorter) basis?
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Matt L.
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Here's the BGG Rating Rubric:

10 Outstanding – will always enjoy playing
9 Excellent – very much enjoy playing
8 Very good – enjoy playing and would suggest it
7 Good – usually willing to play
6 Okay – will play it if in the mood
5 Mediocre – take it or leave it
4 Not so good – but could play again
3 Bad – likely won’t play this again
2 Very bad – won’t play ever again
1 Awful – defies game description

I cannot speak for everyone but I sure can understand how to use this.

If BGG were to use use a different rating system such taking into account all the things that are important to some folks like depth of play, how cool the minis look and whatever else, I would be all for it,....maybe.

But for now, we have the one I listed. I like it.


I actually PREFER the system we have, as it doesn't lie about what it is. It's a subjective assessment, it tells me that from the outset. I can weigh the rankings based on that input.

You could create a system with all sorts of rubrics and there'd still be some asshat that will go through and rate everything a one because their box had a squashed corner in shipping.

The BGG system is every bit as useful to me as the Amazon 5-star ranking, I'm aware of its weaknesses and I take those into consideration as I utilize it.
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Joey Larsen
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I guess I just don't know how else to do a ranking system. Do we nominate 10 experts to rate everything? That would likely be much worse.
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John Boyles
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I rarely go by ratings because others have different preferences than I do. If I use ratings for anything, I must know who is rating it for it to be accurate to me. Ratings matter if you put the time in to research and ask questions. For instance, forums are a great place to do this because you can see what the people are playing and what they are into compared to yourself.
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Ryan Keane
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Another pointless thread about BGG rankings
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Daniel Blumentritt
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Quote:
(by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games)


What?
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Jae
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Some of you are misunderstanding what is "broken" here.
The way YOU vote for a game is fine.
What needs to be fixed is how those votes are collected, collated and compared.

If you used a raw correlation, a game rated a ten by one user would instantly be #1 on the list. This clearly won't work as many designers would gladly shill their game that way. If you don't think this is important, I was threatened by a game company for rating a game a 3 before the game was published (yes, I had played it).

The current system tries to fix this problem by using something similar to a bayesian average. The votes are collected and then some number of "fake votes" at the average rank of the game are added to "smooth" the outlier votes. This kind of works, but "pan flash" games can still spike the charts. It is harder to game, but still possible.

JMR came up with a system similar to IMDB's ranking system which further suppresses shill voting, but has the added benefit that it prevents kult of the new spikes. Only games which are truly popular show up and have a more gradual rise up the chart instead of, "hot lava birth".

The issue is that media sites and game companies ARE using the data from this site as advertising. So it falls to our responsibility to ensure the highest integrity of our community.

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JPotter
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Soooooo ..... you're saying Gloomhaven either was not ranked #4 on BGG at the time of that writing (that'd be silly, since it was), or should not have been, in your opinion.

Or that the BGG rankings are just plain flawed.

Well, OK.

I suppose the site could have as a condition of joining a requirement to rate EVERY game in the database, ensuring all games have a significant number of ratings being considered in the rankings.

But with almost all of those rankings being made from complete ignorance of almost all the games by every applicant, that would just fill the DB up with noise. Have a massive average effect.

Not to mention making joining a wee bit of a hassle.



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Franz Kafka
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Bagherra wrote:
games which are truly popular

I'm pretty sure that's still what we're getting at the highest ranks with the current system.
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A. B. West
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Yeah! I love Gloomhaven too!

Or was that not the point of this thread?
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Wilbert Kiemeneij
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Statalyzer wrote:
Quote:
(by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games)


What?

Weird, huh?
 
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Chris Johnson
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Statalyzer wrote:
Quote:
(by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games)


What?


I think they meant actual, physical weight...

...that would explain a lot of the nonsense around here. ;)
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Anon Y. Mous
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fnord23 wrote:
Statalyzer wrote:
Quote:
(by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games)


What?


I think they meant actual, physical weight...

...that would explain a lot of the nonsense around here.


Look, if a game doesn't double as a bludgeoning weapon, I'm frankly just not interested.
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Dianne N.
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jmsr525 wrote:
If we are going to have ratings, they will be used especially by people who may or may not understand what they mean.


While I agree with you on this point, I don't feel the article you cited misrepresented what the BGG ratings mean. They didn't say it was the 4th best game ever made - they clearly said it was the 4th highest-rated game, and include clarification that this rating is from BGG site users.
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The Count
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aesthetocyst wrote:
Soooooo ..... you're saying Gloomhaven either was not ranked #4 on BGG at the time of that writing (that'd be silly, since it was), or should not have been, in your opinion.

Or that the BGG rankings are just plain flawed.

Well, OK.

I suppose the site could have as a condition of joining a requirement to rate EVERY game in the database, ensuring all games have a significant number of ratings being considered in the rankings.

But with almost all of those rankings being made from complete ignorance of almost all the games by every applicant, that would just fill the DB up with noise. Have a massive average effect.

Not to mention making joining a wee bit of a hassle.



Look at what he emphasized.
Quote:
highest-rated board games (by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games) ever published, and the first edition sold out so fast that aftermarket copies are listed online for $200


I think all he is saying (and because I have read his very useful stats threads for a while now I think I have an understanding at what he is pointing out) is that BGG ratings right now are what's hot. It's what it is.

But others view the ratings, as pointed out in that article, as the 4th best game ever published. That isn't what a BGG ranking of #4 means.

Gloomhaven is #4 in the rankings, but that doesn't mean it is the 4th best game ever published as the article stated. It is just the 4th most hot game right now.

In 10 years, several other new hot games will have taken its place. Which is fine, but just testament that
Quote:
highest-rated board games ever published
isn't true.



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Ian Noble
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Or rather than saying that the ratings reflect what is "hot", I'd like to think of them as reflecting what the majority of the active BGG users are wanting to play right now. Since that's really how the breakdown of the BGG rating scale is structured.
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Peter Strait
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Ethereality wrote:
fnord23 wrote:
Statalyzer wrote:
Quote:
(by the site’s users, who tend to favor heavy games)


What?


I think they meant actual, physical weight...

...that would explain a lot of the nonsense around here.


Look, if a game doesn't double as a bludgeoning weapon, I'm frankly just not interested.

Hey now, your lack of creativity and/or motivation in weaponizing your collection is hardly the game's fault.

( )
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Franz Kafka
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droberts441 wrote:

Gloomhaven is #4 in the rankings, but that doesn't mean it is the 4th best game ever published as the article stated. It is just the 4th most hot game right now.

In 10 years, several other new hot games will have taken its place. Which is fine, but just testament that
Quote:
highest-rated board games ever published
isn't true.

I'd be more worried about their interpretation if old games started climbing up the rankings quickly. If games not yet published now are the ones that will take over the top spots, it's not inconsistent to think that the top games are "the best ever", if only because we can't yet rate and rank the games of the future.
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J C Lawrence
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jmsr525 wrote:
If we are going to have ratings, they will be used especially by people who may or may not understand what they mean.


This is a problem that I should care about? People are wrong and bone-headed about any number of things as a matter of course.
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Ryan
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Bagherra wrote:
So it falls to our responsibility to ensure the highest integrity of our community.


Are any of the games in the Top 50 (just as an example) there because of shill votes? The OP cited a game ranked 4th, so I think I'm being generous by expanding this to the Top 50. So...do any owe their current home in the Top 50 to shill votes?
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Jamie Hankins
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jmsr525 wrote:
If we are going to have ratings, they will be used especially by people who may or may not understand what they mean. This is why conversations about the quality of ratings and the inputs being used matters.


This inference doesn't hold true to me because it assumes that the lengthy discussions people have about ranking games has a significant impact on the rankings, which I am somewhat unconvinced of.

How many people here have changed how they rank their games based on forum discussions about rankings? How many people rank their games without ever reading a forum discussion about rankings?

I don't object to the existence of forum discussions about this topic but I think it's possible to overestimate the impact of forum discussions; I think that it is very possible that discussions on how people ought to rank games has about the same effect as discussions on what games are and are not fun to play (i.e. very little impact).
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