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More Aggressive Attitudes: The 1862 Virginia Campaign» Forums » Rules

Subject: Why use Pope at all? rss

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Thierry Michel
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As far as I can tell, he's not bringing any benefit to any corps he's stacked with, and there is nothing stopping you from sending him on his own. What am I missing?
 
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Tom Russell
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ThierryM wrote:
As far as I can tell, he's not bringing any benefit to any corps he's stacked with, and there is nothing stopping you from sending him on his own. What am I missing?


Well, he negates 11.2, but you can also negate that by stacking the affected units with other non-affected units. With his variable (and low) leadership rating, he's a bit of a dud, especially compared to Lee, who's going to outclass him at pretty much every turn. That's the historical reality, and the great thing about the game of course is that you don't necessarily need to conform to it in competitive play. Concentrating your units so as to force the kind of major battle that will score you VP is important, but Pope being personally in charge of that stack isn't necessary (it certainly didn't work out for him at Second Bull Run).
 
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Stephen Oliver
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(Written before I saw Tom Russell's post...)

Thierry,

I am sure John Thiessen the designer will chime in but I have to agree with you.

It seems the ONLY benefit Pope conveys is negating 11.2 US Attack Determination Roll.

Also Rule 11.1 states: "Certain Special Events may benefit Units stacked with their Leader." Maybe I am missing it but I could NOT find any Special Events that mentioned stacking with a Leader counter.

Also an aside, Leader Lee seems to have little effect since nearly all CSA units have a Leadership rating of 3 which is equal to Lee's.

Maybe the Leader's Leadership is in ADDITION to the unit's leadership ratings - which would make more sense since even Lee has little effect on the game as I understand the rules...
 
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Tom Russell
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Snowdash wrote:
(Written before I saw Tom Russell's post...)

Thierry,

I am sure John Thiessen the designer will chime in but I have to agree with you.

It seems the ONLY benefit Pope conveys is negating 11.2 US Attack Determination Roll.

Also Rule 11.1 states: "Certain Special Events may benefit Units stacked with their Leader." Maybe I am missing it but I could NOT find any Special Events that mentioned stacking with a Leader counter.


Lee's Lieutenants.

Quote:
Also an aside, Leader Lee seems to have little effect since nearly all CSA units have a Leadership rating of 3 which is equal to Lee's.


Yep, all but Jackson, who is 2 on attack and 3 on defense. Lee would prevent Jackson from bringing down the average when attacking. Compare this with Pope, who generally brings them down.

I will say that in John's forthcoming game Objective Shreveport, the leaders are required to make attacks, which makes them much more crucial to good play.

Quote:

Maybe the Leader's Leadership is in ADDITION to the unit's leadership ratings...


Nope, it's just as it's stated in the rules, instead of, not in addition to. In addition to would result in two or three extra column shifts, which would throw everything completely out of whack.
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John Theissen
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About Lee, Tom is correct that the "Lee's Lieutenant's" special event is an advantage for him. There is also the "Good Morale" event. Also, as Tom mentioned, his 3 rating which will negate Jackson's 2 if they are stacked together. I didn't want to give an artificially inflated rating for Lee, though 3 is as good as it gets in this game. On a tactical level, Lee could at times be somewhat primitive: Malvern Hill, Picket's charge. The great victories at the Chancellorsville battles were due to quick and effective movement of troops, which at this scale is simulated by other factors besides the leader rating.

For Pope, that's right, he does negate 11.2. That could be significant in gathering the units in 11.2 for an attack, otherwise he's not much help.
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Fag an bealac! Riam nar druid ar sbarin lann! Cuimhnigidh ar Luimnech agus feall na Sassonach! Erin go Bragh! Remember Limerick! Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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I like what I am hearing John. Your Pope rule makes sense.

As for Lee's tactics, most people's tactics were primitive in this war due to lack of experience, small staffs, and lack of training in offensive tactics. Who would your rate the best tactician in your series?
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Stephen Oliver
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Hey the rules might reflect what happened historically with General Pope but having a sensible intelligent USA player move the POPE Leader counter to a far away board edge so he does not have to look at the counter is not historical in the least...

Just sayin...

 
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John Theissen
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It's an interesting question. The leaders in the Civil War could be somewhat unpredictable from battle to battle. Longstreet usually had a good tactical sense, but his attack at Knoxville was poorly handled. Jackson was a mixed bag. N B Forrest is usually considered highly rated for his tactical ability.

In the next game, which covers the Red River Campaign, including the Camden expedition, as it was called, the highest rated leaders are Taylor (CSA) and A J Smith (USA).
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John Theissen
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Stephen, I'm working on an optional rule that would nudge the Union player to using Pope more and getting him into the action. Stay tuned!
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Fag an bealac! Riam nar druid ar sbarin lann! Cuimhnigidh ar Luimnech agus feall na Sassonach! Erin go Bragh! Remember Limerick! Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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John if you need any playtesters or another set of eyes for the rules/scenarios let me know. I did some preliminary work on a Red River game because it is a great campaign but no one has yet made a game.

For my money, the best army level tactician was George Thomas.
 
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John Theissen
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Thanks Sean.
 
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John Theissen
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I posted two optional rules in the Variant Forum. These give the USA player incentives to bring Pope up to the front lines. surprise
 
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