Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
6 Posts

Empires in America (second edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Combat with no leaders...a draw? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bill Severn
United States
Baltimore
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If a combat would occur and no leaders for either side are present, is that treated as a draw?

Thx
Bill
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
severn8212 wrote:
If a combat would occur and no leaders for either side are present, is that treated as a draw?

How would a combat happen with no leaders on either side? (Is there some special case, e.g. some event card, which I am not remembering?) Normally the attacking side must have a leader.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Severn
United States
Baltimore
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry...guess what i meant was what happens if an army advances into a fortress space by event but neither side has a leader to engage in combat? Does the army go back or automatically take the space?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rules wrote:
[6.7] Army Events: Certain events might cause a British Army to Advance or Retreat (during the Historique phase); this happens regardless of the presence or absence of a British Leader assigned to that Army (see Rule [8.4]) except against Fortress Boxes. In that case, typically, an Army without a British Leader does not Advance into a Fortress box via a card (exception: Pitt Takes Control).

So the only way this could happen is Pitt Takes Control.

In that case, from the thread Pitt Takes Control (mentioned in Empires in America (second edition) FAQ, which I recommend if you haven't seen it yet):
Pitt Takes Control
If an army advances into a space with a fort marker and the French don't defend it, so no combat occurs, the fort marker is trashed just as if the French had lost a battle to defend it.

Hope that helps!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E C
United States
Park City
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Below is specifically for the Pitt card, in case I'm forgetting some other card that also triggers an advance. Note, I've played this game 4 times and Pitt causing an advance into a fortress box has happened every time (St. Lawrence track).

Despite the comment from VPG (which appears more off-hand), if you consider Pitt to confer leader status to an advancing army, the rules become overly ambiguous and would require creation of an exception that one would not naturally come to by reading the rules. First, the relevant rules.

The Pitt card reads: "Advance each British Army one space. Unled Armies can enter a Fortress box, but not the Montreal box, via this card (see 6.7)."

6.7 reads, in part: "an Army without a British Leader does not Advance into a fortress box via a card (exception: Pitt Takes Control). Armies with British Leaders can Advance into an enemy Fortress box via an Army event (triggering an immediate British Assault, see Rule [10.0])."

Thus, the Pitt card and 6.7 would seem to indicate that if a British leader is not assigned to the track, the advancing army is considered an unled army even if advancing under the Pitt card.

"[12.1] Halt: Fortress boxes stop British Army movement via Advance when entering a French-controlled Fortress box and a British Assault (Rule [10.0]) immediately ensues."

Thus, this would indicate that a British Assault is initiated with an unled British army.

Rule 12.2 provides for an optional French defense where you can still defend if "you do not...commit a Leader."

Based on this, the French can assign a leader or not assign a leader in defense of this unled Army assault. If the French assign a leader, a Minor Engagement occurs. If the French do not assign a leader, the rules do not cover a case where both sides are leaderless. But, if both sides are leaderless, it would seem that a draw has to result from 10.0, step 7, and 11.1 (both sides are leaderless so don't roll dice). If you can cause a draw by not assigning a French leader, then a fortress would always prevent an unled army from occupying the fortress box.

From the above, you only deal with one case which is not explicitly covered by the rule book (two leaderless armies fighting). There are more cases not covered by the rule book if the Pitt card somehow confers leader status to the advancing army. When an army advances into a Fortress box, we need to resolve if this causes a Major Battle or a Minor Engagement (assuming you aren't using optional rule 13.5). This should be a Major Battle (1) if the track has a British leader assigned and the French assigned a leader in defense; or (2) if the track is without a British leader, Pitt somehow confers leader status, and the French assigned a leader in defense. This should be Minor Engagement (3) if the track does not have a British leader assigned, the French did not assign a leader in defense but the Pitt card confers leader status to the advancing army.

Case (1) is simple, a normal Major Battle occurs. Case (2) is a problem. For example, if a Major Battle occurs under (2), you are left to fill in the gaps as to what rating and battalion count would be for the advancing army. If a Minor Engagement occurs under (3), you are left to guess as to how many dice the advancing Army rolls. Thus, there are at least 2 cases which are not explicitly addressed by the rules if the Pitt card somehow confers leader status to the advancing army.

To make matters worse, optional rule 13.5 adds this language: "Normally, actively defending a Fortress box requires a Leader." But, as mentioned above, the rules are clear at 12.2 that you do not need to assign a leader, so let's ignore that preamble to 13.5, for the time being.

To avoid the mess of ambiguities, I see three options: (A) consider any army advancing under the Pitt card as an unled army if no British leader is assigned to the track or as a led army if a British leader is assigned to the track; (B) consider the Pitt card as causing an exception to the rules and the French are not provided with any defense opportunity and the advancing army simply enters the fortress box (auto-win) and destroys the fortress if it was a non-permanent fortress; or (C) consider the Pitt card as causing an exception to Rule 12.2, and you must actively defend the fortress box with a leader, or you lose the fortress (this seems to bring back the preamble of 13.5).

(C) seems to be what your FAQ has gone with, but the only support in the rules is a preamble in 13.5 and some additional support by an off-hand comment on the BGG forums. Moreover, it feels like a less natural reading of the rules since it requires you to create an exception not indicated on the Pitt Card. To me, it seems a more natural reading of the rules to use option (A), which would cause a draw if the French do not assign a leader in defense of the fort. Option (A) also feels more thematic: Pitt commands the British armies to advance, but the armies without leaders are less effective and are too disorganized to capture a French-controlled fortress. There are problems with both, however, and the source of those issues is the rule book itself.

[Edits: for clarity]
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

So, what's the official consensus on declaring option C as the correct answer?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.