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Subject: What do Republican voters hate almost as much as the media? rss

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Shawn Fox
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Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.


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Yeah the job market for those with no college is going to boom any day now.
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Everything,

I was going to say everything apart from themselves but that probally isn't true they more than likely hate themselves too.
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sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.




Where will our Intellectuals flee to when the Trumpites take over? Many of the educated Iranians came here after the Iranian revolution. What will be the safe haven for educated Americans? Canada? Britain? Germany?
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Rulesjd wrote:
sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.


Where will our Intellectuals flee to when the Trumpites take over? Many of the educated Iranians came here after the Iranian revolution. What will be the safe haven for educated Americans? Canada? Britain? Germany?

The US has only about 5% of the world's population. Basic statistics dictate that there are far more genius level intellects outside of the US than inside of it. Common sense would suggest that the best way for the US to succeed in the future is make sure that we keep attracting the best and the brightest to come here rather than pushing them away.
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Soup Pilgrim
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Most people are swayed by recent news stories they read every day. So this arises from the horror stories from evergreen and mizzou. Paint those who you disagree with using the worst brush you can find propaganda.
 
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Rulesjd wrote:
Where will our Intellectuals flee to when the Trumpites take over? Many of the educated Iranians came here after the Iranian revolution. What will be the safe haven for educated Americans? Canada? Britain? Germany?

California or metro New England, NYC, Boston, etc.

Colleges and universities are almost the only game in town for long term, high wage job security. Trade schools are a joke; even the most legit is going to teach today's skills which won't help tomorrow. I don't see trades, like plumber, automating soon, though if 3D house printing becomes a thing, construction jobs would take a big hit. Outside of that, it's service jobs: store clerks are decreasing, but high end waiters will keep making good money as long as the local economy is doing well.
 
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Apparently, when education level has a high positive correlation with voting for the other party, it's obviously the universities' "fault" and you embrace anti-intellectualism--regardless of the company that puts you in and what it does to your country.
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Erik17 wrote:
Apparently, when education level has a high positive correlation with voting for the other party, it's obviously the universities' "fault" and you embrace anti-intellectualism--regardless of the company that puts you in and what it does to your country.

Or you adopt policies to attract people of higher education levels, which should also increase contributions.
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sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.




Any surprise that the disparity in the votes of college educated voters was the largest since 1980. To put it more bluntly this is the new GOP mantra

Quote:
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength"

George Orwell "1984"



Getting closer and closer to a dystopian USA under the gentle guidance of your friendly neighborhood Republicans

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Tall_Walt wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
Apparently, when education level has a high positive correlation with voting for the other party, it's obviously the universities' "fault" and you embrace anti-intellectualism--regardless of the company that puts you in and what it does to your country.

Or you adopt policies to attract people of higher education levels, which should also increase contributions.


As long as those values include pro-life, pro-gun, and pro-Russia, should be doable.

And coal. Also anti-gay. Last one: endless tax cuts. That's critical. And supply side economics.

If I could add one more it would be small government.

Anti-global warming.

Guess that's about it. But within those constraints, there's lots of possible issues the educated might like.

Oh, also anti-education.
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sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.

I'm very much pro intellectualism and pro education, but colleges have kind of run their course, when many of the degrees are either pretty useless as they don't get you a job, or consist mainly of skills/knowledge more easily/efficiently be acquired/taught using modern technology. Of course there are topics that absolutely require research institutions and highly qualified staff but most of the university learning approach is very outdated nowadays. I don't see colleges funded by tuitions to change that approach though because most alternatives would lower those funds.
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crescent_gamer wrote:
sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.

I'm very much pro intellectualism and pro education, but colleges have kind of run their course, when many of the degrees are either pretty useless as they don't get you a job, or consist mainly of skills/knowledge more easily/efficiently be acquired/taught using modern technology. Of course there are topics that absolutely require research institutions and highly qualified staff but most of the university learning approach is very outdated nowadays. I don't see colleges funded by tuitions to change that approach though because most alternatives would lower those funds.

I do agree that a lot of people pursue worthless degrees, but they do it by choice. People also could learn almost everything via the internet that they do by going to university, but how would they prove it? The truth is that university is more about weeding out the people who are not capable of showing up to class and doing the basic work necessary for four years to get a degree, it isn't really about what you learn while you are there.

That said, university is also about meeting other people in your field and being exposed to ideas from outside of your culture. As someone who grew up in a small conservative town I have no trouble admitting that my outlook on life changed drastically during my four five years of university. Professors are also great resources to help point you toward things that you should be learning. Not to mention the summer internships, job fairs, and industry contacts which become available via the work placement services of any quality school.

The TLDR being, university offers a lot more than just teaching you the knowledge specific to your degree, but only if you take proper advantage of it.
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sfox wrote:
crescent_gamer wrote:
sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.

I'm very much pro intellectualism and pro education, but colleges have kind of run their course, when many of the degrees are either pretty useless as they don't get you a job, or consist mainly of skills/knowledge more easily/efficiently be acquired/taught using modern technology. Of course there are topics that absolutely require research institutions and highly qualified staff but most of the university learning approach is very outdated nowadays. I don't see colleges funded by tuitions to change that approach though because most alternatives would lower those funds.

I do agree that a lot of people pursue worthless degrees, but they do it by choice. People also could learn almost everything via the internet that they do by going to university, but how would they prove it? The truth is that university is more about weeding out the people who are not capable of showing up to class and doing the basic work necessary for four years to get a degree, it isn't really about what you learn while you are there.

That said, university is also about meeting other people in your field and being exposed to ideas from outside of your culture. As someone who grew up in a small conservative town I have no trouble admitting that my outlook on life changed drastically during my four five years of university. Professors are also great resources to help point you toward things that you should be learning. Not to mention the summer internships, job fairs, and industry contacts which become available via the work placement services of any quality school.

The TLDR being, university offers a lot more than just teaching you the knowledge specific to your degree, but only if you take proper advantage of it.


That's the exact conversation I had with my daughter this weekend.
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crescent_gamer wrote:
I'm very much pro intellectualism and pro education, but colleges have kind of run their course, when many of the degrees are either pretty useless as they don't get you a job, or consist mainly of skills/knowledge more easily/efficiently be acquired/taught using modern technology. Of course there are topics that absolutely require research institutions and highly qualified staff but most of the university learning approach is very outdated nowadays. I don't see colleges funded by tuitions to change that approach though because most alternatives would lower those funds.

In addition to the sfox's comments, colleges and universities teach you how to learn anything. The most useless degrees often have the widest number of things you learn, unlike tightly focused degrees like law, pre-med, or engineering.

Though, some people just brain-freeze in their 30s or 40s. I think very low cost community colleges combat that somewhat. So does the Internet.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
crescent_gamer wrote:
I'm very much pro intellectualism and pro education, but colleges have kind of run their course, when many of the degrees are either pretty useless as they don't get you a job, or consist mainly of skills/knowledge more easily/efficiently be acquired/taught using modern technology. Of course there are topics that absolutely require research institutions and highly qualified staff but most of the university learning approach is very outdated nowadays. I don't see colleges funded by tuitions to change that approach though because most alternatives would lower those funds.

In addition to the sfox's comments, colleges and universities teach you how to learn anything. The most useless degrees often have the widest number of things you learn, unlike tightly focused degrees like law, pre-med, or engineering.

Though, some people just brain-freeze in their 30s or 40s. I think very low cost community colleges combat that somewhat. So does the Internet.


I don't know what it's like in the US, but over here in the UK teaching students is only part of what universities do: research is one of their chief goals, and that research - which is often both cutting edge and without immediately obvious economic benefits - can only be done within the context of the funding model that universities operate under (despite recent governments trying to erode that).
 
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sfox wrote:
People also could learn almost everything via the internet that they do by going to university, but how would they prove it?

By taking certified tests.

sfox wrote:
The truth is that university is more about weeding out the people who are not capable of showing up to class and doing the basic work necessary for four years to get a degree, it isn't really about what you learn while you are there.

That's not what university is supposed to be about though.

sfox wrote:
That said, university is also about meeting other people in your field and being exposed to ideas from outside of your culture. As someone who grew up in a small conservative town I have no trouble admitting that my outlook on life changed drastically during my four five years of university.

The majority of graduates do not learn critical thinking abilities.

sfox wrote:
Professors are also great resources to help point you toward things that you should be learning. Not to mention the summer internships, job fairs, and industry contacts which become available via the work placement services of any quality school.

The TLDR being, university offers a lot more than just teaching you the knowledge specific to your degree, but only if you take proper advantage of it.

That's probably also why people who can not go to college and therefore are cut out off those job opportunities harbor resentment against universities.

It should be pointed out that the question of the poll was whether colleges/universities have a positive or negative effect "on the way things are going in the country". Given that colleges put people in substantial debt, are overpriced/inefficient in what they are supposed to provide, and present a significant barrier of entry that suppresses social mobility, I might have to actually agree that the American college system as it is today has a net negative effect on the country.
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crescent_gamer wrote:

That's probably also why people who can not go to college and therefore are cut out off those job opportunities harbor resentment against universities.

Who are these people who "can not go to college"?
 
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crescent_gamer wrote:
sfox wrote:
The truth is that university is more about weeding out the people who are not capable of showing up to class and doing the basic work necessary for four years to get a degree, it isn't really about what you learn while you are there.
That's not what university is supposed to be about though.
Although it doesn't get discussed as much in modern times (probably due to the job market being so uncertain and cutthroat) the idea of universities in the USA was always rooted in a Greek idea of producing "well-rounded" students of "character." American colleges and universities worked hard at not being seen as just a trade school where the point was simply a piece of paper to advance a vocation. Sure, there was still a little of the British way of using higher education as a social signifier (snooty fucks!) but the whole point of being able to major in everything from electrical engineering to basketweaving was a feature, not a bug.

Can we argue about how well colleges have fulfilled that role? Certainly.
Can we also argue about the need for vocational/technical schools to fill a market need? Absolutely.
But the traditional American university education system (which remains the envy of the world BTW, just look at how many foreigners send their sons & daughters here) still has a function and a place.
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fightcitymayor wrote:
But the traditional American university education system (which remains the envy of the world BTW,


Some of it does. Not all, certainly not over here.
 
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mutton_chops wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
But the traditional American university education system (which remains the envy of the world BTW,

Some of it does. Not all, certainly not over here.
Oh you're just mad I called British people snooty fucks.

#notallbritishpeople
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Although it doesn't get discussed as much in modern times (probably due to the job market being so uncertain and cutthroat) the idea of universities in the USA was always rooted in a Greek idea of producing "well-rounded" students of "character." American colleges and universities worked hard at not being seen as just a trade school where the point was simply a piece of paper to advance a vocation. Sure, there was still a little of the British way of using higher education as a social signifier (snooty fucks!) but the whole point of being able to major in everything from electrical engineering to basketweaving was a feature, not a bug.

We have to untangle the argument a little bit.

Do college degrees signify certain abilities in the graduate such as study skills and discipline? Yes. Who is interested in that? Businesses. Who wants colleges to essentially be trade schools, where people learn skills quickly and competently? Businesses, and people who want to work for businesses.

Do trust fund kiddies studying the intricacies of basketweaving care what their degree signifies to future employers? I'd wager they do not.

I'm not arguing at all against elite private schools, but public colleges should teach qualifications efficiently and inexpensively. Those could then also set specific academic standards for graduation (such as critical thinking abilities) because they don't have to worry as much about pleasing their customers. As a result it would also matter less what school someone graduated from; elite private schools excluded of course.
 
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fightcitymayor wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
But the traditional American university education system (which remains the envy of the world BTW,

Some of it does. Not all, certainly not over here.
Oh you're just mad I called British people snooty fucks.

#notallbritishpeople


Ha! Did you? I didn't notice...well, I'd agree some of us are. I mean, I certainly am. But then, I'm a rather superior specimen, don't you know, so it's perfectly reasonable.

I've mentioned this here before, but many years ago, I worked at a UK (Russell Group) university for a while. We had a list, entitled "Institutions of Dubious Standing", used to help evaluate admissions, and which included (from around the world) out-and-out fraudulent degree-by-mail organisations, but also full- and part-time colleges where the academic quality was considered decidedly dodgy. Whenever I had cause to use it, I was always surprised to see how many US colleges were on there. Of course, that was 30 years ago, so perhaps things have changed...
 
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Whenever I hear people talk about "useless degrees in basketweaving", it gives me a pretty good idea how much they respect education in general.
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crescent_gamer wrote:
sfox wrote:
Universities...

http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisi...

The last decade of anti intellectualism which has been fed to Republican voters by their political party and the real "mainstream media" (conservative media) is doing grave damage to the future of this country.

I'm very much pro intellectualism and pro education, but colleges have kind of run their course, when many of the degrees are either pretty useless as they don't get you a job, or consist mainly of skills/knowledge more easily/efficiently be acquired/taught using modern technology. Of course there are topics that absolutely require research institutions and highly qualified staff but most of the university learning approach is very outdated nowadays. I don't see colleges funded by tuitions to change that approach though because most alternatives would lower those funds.


The problem with modern Universities is money.

Universities today are run like businesses. As a business, they have convinced everyone that you need a college degree to be valued as a worker of almost any kind (creating artificial demand). Now since this fundamental assumption isn't true, you don't actually need to know estoric bullshit to function as a worker, and thus the primary goal of universities isn't to educate. The primary goals are 1) to make money and 2) to employ administrators (typically coming from either business or education degrees). So it is important to acknowledge that "selling tickets" and "butts-in-seats" and "retention" to keep tuition coming in are paramount. If college could be reduced to dragging your diploma to the checkout basket and clicking pay-now, it would be done in a heartbeat, I promise you.

Unfortunately, there is still a somewhat vague notion that students should get something intangible for their money, and so you need classes. The classes themselves are run by incredibly earnest, hard-working and well-meaning faculty, tenure-track and non-tenure track alike, who are fiercely dedicated to sharing their discipline. (I acknowledge there are some bums in the system, who have given up and just don't care anymore, but honestly, in my experience, they are rare). The goal of the instructors is, absolutely, to teach. But to teach well, everyone understand this, you need to have a low student to teacher ratio which runs at odds with selling as many tickets as you can. So yes, the most motivated students filter up through huge class sizes into things like undergraduate research which is essentially an apprenticeship and this is the best thing a student can do to increase expertise. So the most motivated self select to get the best training and the most of out college while the majority of students are just "doing time" until their diploma comes in the mail 5+ years later. And this is okay because the actual system of training experts is organically adjusting to return to where it should be of low student to teacher ratio and the rest just get paper.

Now let's talk about subject matter. There are useful and non-useful degrees right? The useful degrees like STEM, business, and education, get you jobs and the non-useful degrees, like art, humanities and history, don't. That. Is. Bullshit. It is bullshit because college is now considered "worker training" which it was never meant to me. College was a place where rich people frittered away their time and money to learn something esoteric and take it out and improve the world. See, there once was a time when people understood that the strength of America was in diversity of ideas. That people with different ideas invented different things that could be sold and improve society. And so a person who mixed music and science would have different ideas than a person who mixed math and science. But no more. We now believe that homogeneity of training is good (this is a lie to sell more tickets). That humanities are a waste of time (this is a lie to undermine “liberalism”). STEM makes products that can be sold and the humanities make the world a more enjoyable and rich place to live. And undermining the humanities is sad because they are where really new, abstract different ideas come from that are so valuable to making the world a better place. Personally, my career is fundamentally different and fundamentally improved because I chose to be trained in religion as well as science.

Make no mistake. Republicans love universities. They control the administrations and they are making a lot of money off of them. The only thing that bums them out is the education part. They need to move the “university” online to get closer to the ideal of “selling diplomas”. Exchanging student money for worthless paper. The real strength of the university system has been, and always will be, dialog. The ability to interact directly with experts. To question and debate and work alongside those experts so the student can create their own expertise. Not externally defined expertise by assessment and metrics, expertise that comes naturally from the internally motivated, curious, well-rounded thoughtful individuals.

If any of this resonates with you, stay vigilant. Promote diversity in education not homogeneity. Understand the critical role of the humanities. Understand that the goal of universities is now "train people to fit into jobs" when it used to be "train people to make new jobs starting with their own"!!! In the next 10 years there will be a concerted effort to begin dissolving the value of brick-and-mortar institutions in favor of online bullshit.

For hundreds of years, people have been able to educate themselves purely by reading but they come to the University for interaction. I feel that these personal interactions can be replaced with respect to monetization but not with respect to education.

I always tell students to be irrelevant! Because what seems to be irrelevant now, that new expert can create whole new field, new jobs, and new economies.

A passionate expert always creates their own opportunities. Always.
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