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Subject: Stuning a mob rss

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Alex Russo
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When we stun a mob, all the enemies get stunned and we can then target the agent. If we kill the agent the mob disbands or we still have to kill the mob?

Can stunned mob retaliate?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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This is covered on page 37 of the rules:
Rules p37 wrote:
EXAMPLE: Using an Ice Mace, Owen Stuns an entire Dwarf
Defenders
Mob, then proceeds to kill the Boss and leaves the Zone
harmlessly, stealing its Equipment. The Dwarf Defender Minions
then Counter-Attack, but must spend their entire Counter-Attack
Activation
getting up; they can’t attack Owen during their Activation
and no longer have the Boss’ Equipment to help them.

That covers pretty much everything you asked, I think.

Edit: Note that I'm assuming you meant 'Boss' when you said 'agent', as Agents don't have Minions.
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Andrew Sellers
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With that in mind, depending obviously on the map, when Owen leaves the zone. Is he able to escape their chase by getting out of line of site, thus sending the mob to do the forward and backward patrol from exit to entrance?

Live to fight another day possibilities?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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asellers98 wrote:
With that in mind, depending obviously on the map, when Owen leaves the zone. Is he able to escape their chase by getting out of line of site, thus sending the mob to do the forward and backward patrol from exit to entrance?

Live to fight another day possibilities?

If Owen can both leave Line of Sight and enter a Shadow Zone, then the Mob won't even activate and will have to wait for the next Enemies' Phase to remove their Stunned status. If he only leaves Line of Sight, they will Counter-Attack as normal in order to remove their Stunned status.

From the rules on Counter-Attacks:
MD Rulebook p27 wrote:
Important: Heroes can avoid a Counter-Attack if they hide
away in the shadows. If the Hero is out of Line of Sight of
the Enemy he attacked and in a Shadow Zone, the Enemy
will not be activated to Counter-Attack.


Thus, I don't think you will ever get a Counter-Attack activation that would cause the back and forth patrol mode, even without Stunning the Mob.
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Alex Russo
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cheers!
 
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Captain Orlando
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Thanks for that, we missed this example in the rules last night when we were playing.
 
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Sebastien Langis
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I didn't play the game yet, but I already think something is broken with the stun/counter-attack rules.

Missing a turn is really different than missing a counter-attack. A normal stun attack on an enemy will make it miss a counter-attack, but not a turn.

Still, I see from all the information I have, three ways to make an enemy completely miss his turn:

- Stun then hide in the shadow
- Mila's leg swipe
- Bonecrusher's concussion

For me, it's like there is two kinds of stun effects. My "didn't play yet" opinion is that all "stun" should be the same. Either "a stunned enemy miss his first counter-attack, but don't miss his normal turn" (makes the game a bit harder), OR "stunned enemies don't counter-attack the hero who stunned them" (makes the game a bit easier).
 
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Michael G
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I think you're possibly reading the old version of the rules.

From the latest rules:
The Stun effect temporarily disables an Actor. Lay down his miniature to keep track of the effect.
A Stunned Enemy spends its next Activation getting up. It doesn’t do anything else during that Activation, neither moving nor attacking.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Canthus wrote:
I think you're possibly reading the old version of the rules.

From the latest rules:
The Stun effect temporarily disables an Actor. Lay down his miniature to keep track of the effect.
A Stunned Enemy spends its next Activation getting up. It doesn’t do anything else during that Activation, neither moving nor attacking.


Who are you calling out? Also, are you taking into account this other rule:
Rules p 27 wrote:
Any Enemies that the Hero attacks during his Activation
(whether he Wound them or not), and which are still alive
after he’s performed all his Actions, will try to Counter-
Attack. At the end of a Hero’s Activation, all Enemies that
were attacked by him are Activated to try to attack that
Hero. This Enemy Activation is performed the same way
as in the Enemy Phase (see next chapter), with one exception:
the activated Enemies will only target the Hero who
attacked them.
...
If the Hero is out of Line of Sight of
the Enemy he attacked and in a Shadow Zone, the Enemy
will not be activated to Counter-Attack.

So a stunned mob's next activation will be this counter-attack unless the hero in question got out of Line of Sight and into Shadow. So if the Hero didn't get away, the Stunned enemies will use their counter-attack to remove the Stun and will activate normally during the Enemies' Phase.
 
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Michael G
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I was replying to Sebastien, but you're right, I was wrong and missed that part of the rulebook!
 
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Eric B
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I don't see the issue? If a mob is stunned, it uses it's would be counter-attack to get up and out of the stun, right? If the player stuns the enemy his first turn though, then moves to a shadow zone his next turn and gets out of line of sight, the mob doesn't counter attack. It spends its next normal turn (after all the players' turns end) getting out of the stun.

I guess it's a little weird because why would it stay stunned for the counter attack portion, but I mean why do some mobs counter attack while others don't when a player is attacking anyways, even if they are in the same zone?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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deathleech wrote:
I guess it's a little weird because why would it stay stunned for the counter attack portion, but I mean why do some mobs counter attack while others don't when a player is attacking anyways, even if they are in the same zone?


You mean how only the monsters you attacked will counter-attack? What exactly would monsters that you didn't attack be countering?
 
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Eric B
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Clipper wrote:
deathleech wrote:
I guess it's a little weird because why would it stay stunned for the counter attack portion, but I mean why do some mobs counter attack while others don't when a player is attacking anyways, even if they are in the same zone?


You mean how only the monsters you attacked will counter-attack? What exactly would monsters that you didn't attack be countering?


I understand why it's there from a game mechanics perspective, but I meant looking at it from a more realistic perspective. So you have a roaming monster and a mob in the same zone with you, you attack the roaming monster and it counter-attacks but the mob just stands there and watches doing nothing? Seems kind of weird no?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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deathleech wrote:
I understand why it's there from a game mechanics perspective, but I meant looking at it from a more realistic perspective. So you have a roaming monster and a mob in the same zone with you, you attack the roaming monster and it counter-attacks but the mob just stands there and watches doing nothing? Seems kind of weird no?

If it were to work more like that, they'd need a different name is what I was trying to get at.

You can't counter-attack something unless you are attacked by that thing. Sure you could defend your buddies that were attacked, or take an attack of opportunity, but you couldn't call it counter-attacking, as nothing happened to you to be countered.

And yeah, they could have gone with a different name and had others join in, but counter-attacking is a cool name, so I'm happy with it.
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Eric B
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Ya, I get it.

Back to the question, I am not sure where the confusion is coming from over the rules? If the enemy gets stunned it has to use it's next action to remove the stun. If it can't see someone to counter-attack, there is no action to be performed so it waits until it's normal move/attack activation to remove the stun. What's the issue people are having with the rules exactly? Sorry if I am totally missing it but that's why I brought up it only not making sense from a realistic perspective.

Also the Bonecrusher and Mila's stuns are exactly like a normal stun, they just have some slight alterations? Bonecrushers can stun all enemies in a zone with the right rolls and higher level Concussion. The actual stun acts exactly the same as any other though?
 
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Ciro Peppiniello
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deathleech wrote:


Also the Bonecrusher and Mila's stuns are exactly like a normal stun, they just have some slight alterations? Bonecrushers can stun all enemies in a zone with the right rolls and higher level Concussion. The actual stun acts exactly the same as any other though?


I think that when Bonecrusher stuns enemies in adjacent zone it doesen't trigger their counter-attack, otherwise it would be useless. A good strategy would be stunning from distance or stunning ad leaving the zone while in the stunned enemy's zone there is another hero, so it can't counter-attack. What do you think?
Another question, do you think that automatic inflicted wounds (like bonecrusher free class skill)would trigger counter-attack?

(P.s. sorry for my bad english )
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I'm finally able to check the cards in question.

So by Bonecrusher, you are meaning the Bonecrusher Class, specifically the Level 4 Concussion Skill. Indeed, the enemies in the same and adjacent Zones that you did not attack will not counter-attack the Bonecrusher immediately (assuming he doesn't attack them as well), so their stun will last until another player attacks them or until the Enemies' Phase.

Mila's Leg Swipe is similar as it is not an attack, just an effect. Of course, if you also happened to attack with one of Mila's actions, then it will counter-attack still, of course.

These are consistent with how all other Stun effects work, but they are easier to make last until the Enemies' Phase as they are not inflicted via an attack, which is the difference you are highlighting.

Shika88 wrote:
A good strategy would be stunning from distance or stunning ad leaving the zone while in the stunned enemy's zone there is another hero, so it can't counter-attack. What do you think?

It being in a zone with another hero means it will still attempt to counter-attack and remove Stun, so that's not enough. Keep in mind that it is rather hard to leave an enemy's zone too.

Quote:
Another question, do you think that automatic inflicted wounds (like bonecrusher free class skill)would trigger counter-attack?

No. Attacks involve rolling the attack and defense dice. Abilities that just roll dice are not attacks.
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Doctor Bandage
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Clipper wrote:
Shika88 wrote:
A good strategy would be stunning from distance or stunning ad leaving the zone while in the stunned enemy's zone there is another hero, so it can't counter-attack. What do you think?

It being in a zone with another hero means it will still attempt to counter-attack and remove Stun, so that's not enough. Keep in mind that it is rather hard to leave an enemy's zone too.


Counter attacks only target the hero that attacked the enemy. They can never attack a different hero, nor do they activate if the hero that attacked them is out of LOS and in shadow, regardless of who else is in the zone. Having another hero in the enemy's zone while the attacking hero is out of the enemy's range, but in a light zone or otherwise in LOS will not stop an counter attacking enemy from activating, thus removing the stun. But if the enemy was not stunned, the enemy activates and then does nothing because the attacking hero is out of range and the hero in its zone is preventing the enemy from moving (unless the enemy has slippery or something).

Also, unless something has changed from the WIP to the final rules, stunned actors are ignored when attempting to move out of a zone, so it's not too hard to stun and run.
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Thilo M.
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deathleech wrote:
Ya, I get it.

Back to the question, I am not sure where the confusion is coming from over the rules? If the enemy gets stunned it has to use it's next action to remove the stun. If it can't see someone to counter-attack, there is no action to be performed so it waits until it's normal move/attack activation to remove the stun. What's the issue people are having with the rules exactly? Sorry if I am totally missing it but that's why I brought up it only not making sense from a realistic perspective.



I don't have a problem, but I guess thematically it makes sense that the monster does not counter attack if it cannot see the attacker, but why would it skip its opportunity to stand up just because the hero is out of sight?
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Doctor Bandage
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Quote:
I don't have a problem, but I guess thematically it makes sense that the monster does not counter attack if it cannot see the attacker, but why would it skip its opportunity to stand up just because the hero is out of sight?


I view the whole 'don't counterattack if attacker is out of sight' thing as this game's version of sneak attacks. We can presume that sneak attack stuns catch the enemy so off guard that they don't regain their senses until much later than normal.
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