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Brezhnev's War: NATO vs. the Warsaw Pact in Germany, 1980» Forums » News

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Konstantin Lubsky
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Are there already any nes on this one available?
 
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St.John Wright
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Only what's on Compass Games' website.
Now that I've seen the counters, with UK forces rated as substantially worse than the US, West German, French, and even Dutch and Belgian forces, this is one game I won't be buying.angry
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Konstantin Lubsky
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very strange, why did they do it? The UK has always had one of the most professional armies. Maybe British units are brigades and the other ones are divisions or so?
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Konstantin Lubsky
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Hi, here the discussion I had with the designer on this topic, hopefully, it helps to clarify it a bit:

Konstantin Lubsky why are the British weaker than other NATO units?

Ty Bomba
Ty Bomba If you are not satisfied with the strengths I assigned to ANY of the units, you should feel free to change them to your own liking.

Konstantin Lubsky
Konstantin Lubsky I didn't say that I'm dissatisfied, I'm just curious

Ty Bomba
Ty Bomba Konstantin Lubsky You're not required to be dissatisfied in order to change them; change them out of curiosity.

Konstantin Lubsky
Konstantin Lubsky no offence, please don't take it personal
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mark mathews
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Does he have something against the British as that's a strange attitude to have and a poor answer. Don't think I'll be buying this game then.
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Jim F
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Who knew trench warfare could be such fun?
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Having flicked through the rules, it isn't just the counters that are a throwback to the 70's. The decision about the British Army is just plain perverse as is the 'explanation'.

Shame, cos this one was on my radar.
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St.John Wright
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Where did you have the conversation with Mr Bomba?
 
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Konstantin Lubsky
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RAJ
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Konstantin wrote:
Ty Bomba
Ty Bomba If you are not satisfied with the strengths I assigned to ANY of the units, you should feel free to change them to your own liking.

This is standard Bomba's answer for questions like this.
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St.John Wright
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Well you could congratulate him on being so laid back about how people amend his design, but to me he does come across actually more like he just doesn't care.
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RAJ
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SommeGrandads wrote:
Well you could congratulate him on being so laid back about how people amend his design, but to me he does come across actually more like he just doesn't care.

I guess he even doesn't care that You think he doesn't care.
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St.John Wright
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rajgamer wrote:
SommeGrandads wrote:
Well you could congratulate him on being so laid back about how people amend his design, but to me he does come across actually more like he just doesn't care.

I guess he even doesn't care that You think he doesn't care.

Is the board wargame industry so big that designers think that it's ok to imply that they don't even care that I think that they don't care?
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RAJ
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I'll explain it to you.
Designer before creating a game examines the subject - more or less deeply. Then he determines the strength of the units based on their judgment of the situation and the playability. The game is released and there are people who do not like the strength of specific units. Designer can go into long-term discussions and try to explain why he adopted such coefficients. He may even be convinced by opponent. But "corrected counters" will not be issued. So the conclusion is simple: If you want to improve the strength of units, feel free to do it on your copy.
Ty Bomba instead of wasting time on the discussion immediately agrees with the opponent and goes to the conclusion.
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St.John Wright
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rajgamer, I completely understand that it does no-one any good for the designer to argue over the minutiae of any design with perhaps one or two disgruntled gamers.
On this occasion, though, the design decisions regarding the strengths of the NATO forces are actually putting people off buying the game - please see https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27198223#27198223.
Also, a lifetime of playing games in this period, plus extensive reading, and the opinions of a few friends who served in the military at the time, lead me firmly to believe that the ratings of the UK forces in the game are inaccurate and insulting.
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RAJ
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So correct it on your copy.
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Matt Irsik
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If I recall right, there was a discussion on some other game where I thought the designer seemed to have a low opinion of the BAOR from his experiences. I actually think the counter strengths are the least worrisome sign as I have concerns about the air superiority mechanism, no attacking Austria, and a few other things. I love NATO vs Warsaw Pact games, having played a large number of them over the years and I'm anxiously awaiting the first reviews.
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St.John Wright
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rajgamer wrote:
So correct it on your copy.

While that is most definitely an answer, I do not find it particularly helpful. It's like saying to someone who is disappointed with the ending of a book, "Just cross it out and write your own." It offers an 'answer' while totally negating the other person's concerns.
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Andreas
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SommeGrandads wrote:
... the ratings of the UK forces in the game are inaccurate and insulting.


Maybe "inaccurate", but "insulting"...?
This is just a game...

 
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Tim Wilson
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UK divisions were small--only 2 brigades at this time, IIRC. Size matters, elan notwithstanding.

My game arrived yesterday. Now, to play it...
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Robert Hanawalt
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TimW42 wrote:
UK divisions were small--only 2 brigades at this time, IIRC. Size matters, elan notwithstanding.

My game arrived yesterday. Now, to play it...


Please post a photo of the map when you have a chance.
 
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St.John Wright
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TimW42 wrote:
UK divisions were small--only 2 brigades at this time, IIRC. Size matters, elan notwithstanding.

My game arrived yesterday. Now, to play it...

Thank you - I've just read something very similar on another thread. I take back my jingoistic rantings! Also, now I can happily get this game.
 
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Barry Kendall
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It's been so long since I was "into" NATO/WP games in a big way (going back to "Warsaw Pact" and original "NATO" and "RS/WS") that I do not remember, hence my wonderings below . . .

Might the higher US divisional ratings represent more recon/spotting/C3I/artillery assets than those of some other NATO nations?

If so, then the attack/defense factors might reflect such considerations to a greater degree, rather than simple troop/AFV numbers or quality of combat formation training/leadership.

Not that this would necessarily have proven to be the advantage suggested by the game.

Beyond this, I cannot for the life of me account for the high values of Netherlands units compared with the Belgians--not to mention UK forces!
Inexplicable.

So far all this still has me holding off on purchasing . . . this, and all those other NATO-WP games on my shelves already. Though I am enjoying seeing the "Cold War nostalgia" in gaming these days.

Back then, it all seemed to us a bit more than merely academic recreational pursuits.
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Thaddeus Blanchette
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Remember folks: this game is pre-Reagan.

For what it is worth, Third World War rates the Belgians and Dutch as equal in terms of training and the Dutch substabtially better in terms of attack and defence ratings. The old NATO, written during the period in question, rated all the NATO mech divisions as equal. NATO (Victory Games) rated the Dutch as equal to the Brits and better than the Belgians. The Next War rated the Dutch as better than the British and MUCH better than the Belgians.

So it seems that Ty is just following a consensus here. Where you guys get the idea that the British were so much better than the rest of NATO, at a divisional level, is anyone’s guess. Not a single game designer looking at them during this period seems to see them that way with the possible exception of Frank Chadwick, in Third World War. He rates them “8” in terms of morale and 8-8 attack/defence versus the 6-6-5 Dutch and the 4-4-5 Belgians.

Then again, Frank rates French mechanized divisions at a mere 1-2-6, substantially worse than a British territorial motorized infantry brigade! And Frank also apparently thought that the East Germans were the elite strike force of the Warsaw Pact (at 12-9-7, their tank divisions are stronger and have better morale than the front line Soviet divisions).

What I’m saying is that every WWIII game ever made has these issues and your personal experience as a soldier — not to mention your national biases — aren’t really a good rule of thumb for unit strengths. Frankly? I think the stoner Dutch were about as good as 1970s Americans in most ways.
 
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Thaddeus Blanchette
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Ahn, yes. Tyrone Bomba: the Harlan Ellison of wargaming. Brilliant, but a right pain in the ass to anyone who dares criticize his creations.
 
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Konstantin Lubsky
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Is this game already available? Has anyone tried it already out?
 
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