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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: Counterblow combat result - white unit only attacker rss

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Chris Clarke
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Russia phasing player.

Germany has a counterblow marker on a German Unit solely adjacent to a white Russian Unit.

Russia fullfills the counterblow ("involuntary counterattack") by attacking the German Unit with the white Russian unit. Result is Counterblow.

Russia places Counterblow marker on White Russian unit? Even though this is prohibited during the Counterblow marker placement step?

In other words, are CB results ignored when the attacking force consists of only white units?
 
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Carl Paradis
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aram12 wrote:
Russia phasing player.

Germany has a counterblow marker on a German Unit solely adjacent to a white Russian Unit.

Russia fullfills the counterblow ("involuntary counterattack") by attacking the German Unit with the white Russian unit. Result is Counterblow.

Russia places Counterblow marker on White Russian unit? Even though this is prohibited during the Counterblow marker placement step?

In other words, are CB results ignored when the attacking force consists of only white units?


Good question!

No they are not, these are involuntary counterblows. Nothing in the rules prohibit such a placement by combat result. meeple
 
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Chris Clarke
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Carl, thematically, can this series of events only be described as a "continuation of battle"?

"Counterblows placed by card discards are diversions
made by the Defender, forcing the Phasing player to
attack. Those placed by a “CB” result on the CRT
(thus resolved next turn) are partial advances made
by the Attacker, which will force the other player to
either cede the adjacent ground (so as not to start the
Combat Phase adjacent), or deal with the threat by
attacking it."

That white unit is not going to AAC, so describing the placement of this particular CB marker can hardly be called a partial advance...

I can't remember where you spoke on this subject before...probably lots of places...but in general, after the initial voluntary attack, there are never terrain modifiers accounted for...CA and CB's both occur in the "space between hexes", for lack of a better term. When White units are involved in such CA's and CB's, this represents temporary "sorties" out from fortified positions, correct? A Cadre's white combat strength don't represent fortified positions, but rather show that these "partial" units don't have the logistical capability to make coordinated "voluntary" attacks...and their logical follow through of taking ground (aac).

Is this all reasonable?
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Carl Paradis
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aram12 wrote:
Carl, thematically, can this series of events only be described as a "continuation of battle"?

"Counterblows placed by card discards are diversions
made by the Defender, forcing the Phasing player to
attack. Those placed by a “CB” result on the CRT
(thus resolved next turn) are partial advances made
by the Attacker, which will force the other player to
either cede the adjacent ground (so as not to start the
Combat Phase adjacent), or deal with the threat by
attacking it."

That white unit is not going to AAC, so describing the placement of this particular CB marker can hardly be called a partial advance...

I can't remember where you spoke on this subject before...probably lots of places...but in general, after the initial voluntary attack, there are never terrain modifiers accounted for...CA and CB's both occur in the "space between hexes", for lack of a better term. When White units are involved in such CA's and CB's, this represents temporary "sorties" out from fortified positions, correct? A Cadre's white combat strength don't represent fortified positions, but rather show that these "partial" units don't have the logistical capability to make coordinated "voluntary" attacks...and their logical follow through of taking ground (aac).

Is this all reasonable?


Yes.

The general description depends on the scale of the game of course (NR! games have different scales and sometimes the CB's results are treated differently, as in the Italian Front game, and the Invasion of Crete mini-game)

For example, you could also see this as the units under the first Counterblow doing a partial advance in the defensive lines of the phasing player White/fort units: the end result will be that the non-phasing units (under the first counterblow) will have to attack next turn (they are in a close fight with the defender's units), but the white defender does not have any terrain bonuses as is line is partially penetrated by enemy units.

 
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Chris Clarke
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licinius wrote:


For example, you could also see this as the units under the first Counterblow doing a partial advance in the defensive lines of the phasing player White/fort units: the end result will be that the non-phasing units (under the first counterblow) will have to attack next turn (they are in a close fight with the defender's units), but the white defender does not have any terrain bonuses as is line is partially penetrated by enemy units.



Do you mean under the second counterblow?



 
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Carl Paradis
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aram12 wrote:
licinius wrote:


For example, you could also see this as the units under the first Counterblow doing a partial advance in the defensive lines of the phasing player White/fort units: the end result will be that the non-phasing units (under the first counterblow) will have to attack next turn (they are in a close fight with the defender's units), but the white defender does not have any terrain bonuses as is line is partially penetrated by enemy units.



Do you mean under the second counterblow?





Nope the second counterblow (under the white units).
 
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Chris Clarke
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I'm sorry. I'm thoroughly lost. Can you restate your example again?
 
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Carl Paradis
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Ok...

If a white Unit (lets say a fort) is adjacent to an enemy with a CB marker and must attack it: It simulates that it is in fact the enemy that is doing local infliteations and attacks.

If that attack ends up in another "CB", so the Fort now has a "CB" marker on it, and no terrain modifiers, it also simulates that the enemy is still infiltrating and in "close-quarters" combat against it: it must attack the white unit fort or withdraw.

Of course at this scale you can consider that there is a limited counter-attack capability in white counters by some smaller sub-units, and this is taken into account too when ypu get that "CB" result.
 
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Gotcha. I understand now. Thanks so much for the thematic explanations.
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Carl Paradis
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aram12 wrote:
Gotcha. I understand now. Thanks so much for the thematic explanations.


Cool. Don't hesitate if you have more questions and commentaries. meeple
 
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Jon W
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aram12 wrote:
When White units are involved in such CA's and CB's, this represents temporary "sorties" out from fortified positions, correct?

But...can white units engage in CAs at all? I know they can (and sometimes must) with CBs, but I can't get a clear answer on this from the rules (I'm using NR 3rd edition, 2016; the latest link from the GMT page).

As I read 10.7.2, CAs are optional, and the roles are flipped, essentially creating a new battle. But white units cannot voluntarily attack, and the only exception called out in the rules is 10.1.2 (CBs).

I just had this situation come up against Sevastopol, where as the Soviets I was tempted to do a 1:1 CA on the Axis turn, as I could replace any EX losses on my turn. But the rules seemed to support that it was not allowed.

(Also: sorry to "butt in" on your thread, but it felt the closest to the question I had percolating.)
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Carl Paradis
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waddball wrote:
aram12 wrote:
When White units are involved in such CA's and CB's, this represents temporary "sorties" out from fortified positions, correct?

But...can white units engage in CAs at all? I know they can (and sometimes must) with CBs, but I can't get a clear answer on this from the rules (I'm using NR 3rd edition, 2016; the latest link from the GMT page).

As I read 10.7.2, CAs are optional, and the roles are flipped, essentially creating a new battle. But white units cannot voluntarily attack, and the only exception called out in the rules is 10.1.2 (CBs).

I just had this situation come up against Sevastopol, where as the Soviets I was tempted to do a 1:1 CA on the Axis turn, as I could replace any EX losses on my turn. But the rules seemed to support that it was not allowed.

(Also: sorry to "butt in" on your thread, but it felt the closest to the question I had percolating.)


Sure white units can engage in counterattacks.

Rule 10.7.2 Counterattacks:

If the defender counterattacks, remove any Support mark- er and discard played cards for that battle and go back to Step 1 in the Battle Procedure; i.e., start a brand new battle repeating all of the Steps. This new battle must include the exact same units as in the initial battle, only this time, the counterattacking player becomes the attacker (the other player is the defender) and no terrain shift modi ers are used (although other terrain effects that negate armor shifts and multi-hex advance still apply).

So the exact same units as involved in the first attack must do the counterattacks. Nothing in the rules say you exclude white units. White units cannot ATTACK, but they can sure counterattack.

Nothin in the rules stop you fom counterattacking with your Sevatopol unit.
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Jon W
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Thanks Carl! CAs are okay, then, for white units.

I just felt from my reading that CAs were at some level voluntary, as distinguished from CBs, which are involuntary. I guess no one else has ever come to this conclusion, so...my bad. blush
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One other related question: can disorganized and white units advance after combat if their CA yields a retreat result?

I assume no, but it's not specifically called out as it is with these units in the 2nd bullet under [10.7.3] Counterblows (Involuntary Counterattacks):

• Disorganized and white Combat Strength units can participate in these Counterblows, but can never Advance After Combat (10.8) if victorious.
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Carl Paradis
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waddball wrote:
One other related question: can disorganized and white units advance after combat if their CA yields a retreat result?

I assume no, but it's not specifically called out as it is with these units in the 2nd bullet under [10.7.3] Counterblows (Involuntary Counterattacks):

• Disorganized and white Combat Strength units can participate in these Counterblows, but can never Advance After Combat (10.8) if victorious.


No, they cannot advance.
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