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The Lost Expedition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Are some red boxes 'skill tests' rss

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steve steve
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One card has 2 red boxes:
Lose 1 food,
Lose 1 health, lose 1 health


A) surely you always choose food, and if you don't have any, you lose 1 health. Instead of lose 1 health, lose 1 health


Extra question:
Can you choose to lose 1 food knowing you have none, and pay with health.

Extra question:
Can you choose to lose food when you have lots of food, but use health instead


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Gustavo Herodier
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I don't think you can choose to pay with food when you don't have any in the first place. The "lose 1 health instead" rule is for when you *have* to spend food, and can't.
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steve steve
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From the 'red cards' thread in the rules forum:

you can't choose a red box with a bullet if you don't have a bullet. but you can spend a health token if you decide for a red box with the food symbol

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Gustavo Herodier
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Did the designers say that..? Because if so, the OP's card really is a non-decision. The only way it'd make sense is if they're paving the way for an expansion where food is an expertise (although as it stands now, all characters have "food expertise" by default).
 
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steve steve
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heroes182 wrote:
Did the designers say that..? Because if so, the OP's card really is a non-decision. The only way it'd make sense is if they're paving the way for an expansion where food is an expertise (although as it stands now, all characters have "food expertise" by default).


Yes Peer agreed.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1808831/red-boxes

But I disagree. Look at the theme of the Panther card:
Shoot it and get food, or distract it with food, otherwise it attacks you.


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Gustavo Herodier
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Ive been thinking it through, and I'm wondering now if this isn't a limitation of the (otherwise very elegant) icon system.

Imagine a card only has the following red options:
a) -1 bullet
b) -1 food
Without the food=health rule, this situation would break the game if you'd run out of both resources

Following on from that, a card with the following red options:
a) -1 bullet
b) -1 food
c) -1 health
Is functionally the same, because food=health.

So far so obvious, but how do you point out the distinction using only icons? thematically, it feels wrong that you can choose to give food or "health" to the hungry Tribe (ew...), but mechanically its simpler to just say you can always trade health for food. I'm actually having a bit of trouble writing out what the "thematically correct" rule should be

"if the game would have you pay food and you can't, lose 1 health instead. If you have food, you must use it before you can pay health"...? how do you distinguish "the game demands it" vs "I choose to pay it"? and say it all in icons?

I'm gonna continue playing it that you cant choose to pay food unless you have it it'd feel wrong otherwise
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Gustavo Herodier
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kingsteveape wrote:
heroes182 wrote:
Did the designers say that..? Because if so, the OP's card really is a non-decision. The only way it'd make sense is if they're paving the way for an expansion where food is an expertise (although as it stands now, all characters have "food expertise" by default).


Yes Peer agreed.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1808831/red-boxes

But I disagree. Look at the theme of the Panther card:
Shoot it and get food, or distract it with food, otherwise it attacks you.





I think you're right. Here's another weird example - not only is option 1 less painful, you get an expertise to boot! Why is option 3 even there at all?

Maybe the food=health rule only applies to yellow boxes and the morning/evening tracker?

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steve steve
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I think we are right.

You can't pay food unless you have it.

If you need to pay food in a yellow box and can't then you starve and lose health. But you must pay food if you can.
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Filip Falk Hartelius
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Hi all,

Filip from Osprey Games here.

You can always choose a 'spend food' option, even if you have no food. Some of the cards that have been pointed out mostly give you choices to give you thematic variety, but there are (admittedly very niche) times you'd rather spend health than food. If, for example, you're about come across a Healing Herbs card but are at full health, spending health is a way to economize on food.

Hope this clarifies things.
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Gustavo Herodier
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Hi Filip, thanks for keeping track of these forums!

The question still remains though - its not about spending food instead of health, its about spending "health-in-place-of-food" instead of health.

The Bakairí card, for example, gives the option of (-1 food/health, +1 camping) or (-2 health). There is never a reason to take the -2 health option, whether you have food and plan to spend it, have food but don't plan to spend it, or even if you don't have food at all; the first option is strictly better in all situations.

In the case of the Panther, ok, I can see that as a purely thematic difference even if its mechanically identical.

Is this something that maybe changed later in play testing and some cards remained from a previous ruleset?

Again, thanks for responding and thanks for a great game!
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Filip Falk Hartelius
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I honestly don't remember the thinking exactly behind the Bakairi card. Across the board in the development, most cards started with a thematic effect and were later tweaked, often due to playtesting.

Many tweaks were there to remove redundancies that had appeared in development (say a card had ended up with a choice between A B C and C D E, we could instead do 'mandatory C + choice between A B or D E'). However, these were overwhelmingly spotted when we looked through the cardlist, rather than playtesting (which was much more useful for game balancing) and no matter how many times we looked at that spreadsheet, some artefacts survived this process. As far as I can tell and what we've heard, none of them affect gameplay in a meaningful way.

I'm glad to hear you enjoy it!
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Gustavo Herodier
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Fair enough - it's always interesting to hear about the design process

And you're right, it doesn't *really* affect much... to be honest, I had to go through the deck twice to spot the Bakairí case, even though I was looking out for it because the OP had pointed it out. whistle
 
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The Fire
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I house ruled that you cannot choose food if you have none and it's the only requirement in the option box. Makes the game more difficult but it doesn't break the cards.
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Gustavo Herodier
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Yeah, I gotta admit Im gonna continue playing this way... blush

Hey, death of the author and all that, eh? whistle
 
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steve steve
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This card agrees with us.

option 1: chuck loads of food in the river to distract them and then cross the river safely
option 2: oh dear, cross the river and get nibbled on



However... I am flip/flopping and agreeing with the makers.
The Reason?

In "Pounding Rain" #26 it says "you have to take shelter and set up camp. Then you eat (or starve and lose health). The rain washes the path away(change cards if you want then skip a card).

In "Steep Path" #19, the second red box could say "you stopped to eat but had nothing so you starved. But by taking a break you got your bearings"



I think its all about how you spin it.

"we ate or starved then spent the night" OR "we navigated and pushed ahead" OR "we got the tribe to sacrifice Teddy for the power to push ahead"


Finally, 2 red options both needing food. This means you can always choose a food option even if you have no food.

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