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Subject: Too easy? And some questions rss

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Exik Exik
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mustardayonnaiz wrote:
Exik wrote:
VonDodo wrote:

But heavy armor + shield totally negates the spike defense...or am i wrong?
No, you are correct. Medium armor +1 and the shield + 1 mean no damage from blue gremlin spikes.

Unless they control and dominate then it adds +1/+2 to the spine attack.


Not completely true, gremlins get bonus + 1 to spine attack when dominating. Banding bonus +1 for controlling area is for the claw attack only.
 
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Craig Bocketti
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I am sure you are correct I am just going by memory from this weekend.
 
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Exik wrote:
mustardayonnaiz wrote:
Exik wrote:
VonDodo wrote:

But heavy armor + shield totally negates the spike defense...or am i wrong?
No, you are correct. Medium armor +1 and the shield + 1 mean no damage from blue gremlin spikes.

Unless they control and dominate then it adds +1/+2 to the spine attack.


Not completely true, gremlins get bonus + 1 to spine attack when dominating. Banding bonus +1 for controlling area is for the claw attack only.

Thus the tank + a shield and the skill to count as a double figure in a 3 player game its extremely OP... am i wrong?
 
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Skaak
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VonDodo wrote:
Thus the tank + a shield and the skill to count as a double figure in a 3 player game its extremely OP... am i wrong?

This is indeed a very strong combination against gremlins in the first quest. If playing Thorgar or someone else who habitually stays at {0} with Ecarus, it's almost impossible to be dominated for a 3-hero party.
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Promet wrote:
VonDodo wrote:

I mean even if you get the -1 or even -2 you have still 3 dices to roll for def

Watch out, when defending, you only roll one die per hit you are trying to defend. So let's say the enemy attacks with 3 hits and you have 2 passive armor, you only defend with 1 die.

This was indeed a mistake i did... but i don t think impacted the game so much.
 
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Jon Olsén
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VonDodo wrote:
Promet wrote:
VonDodo wrote:

I mean even if you get the -1 or even -2 you have still 3 dices to roll for def

Watch out, when defending, you only roll one die per hit you are trying to defend. So let's say the enemy attacks with 3 hits and you have 2 passive armor, you only defend with 1 die.

This was indeed a mistake i did... but i don t think impacted the game so much.

I do think this impacts quite a bit. Rolling 1 die versus 3 dice against a single damage will make a huge difference. ~50% chance to take damage compared to ~10%. Will take roughly 5 times more damage if you roll 1 die compared to 3.
(Not exact numbers but gives an idea of the difference)
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Vasilis
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In my experience until now, almost everyone calling the game very easy is probably playing the game wrong at some degree. It's VERY easy to do mistakes and play things wrong until you get a hang of the ruleset.

So if you do find the game being really easy, triple check your rulebook.

Also, do NOT play with Spear.

As for party composition affecting difficulty, sure. Not all heroes are equally powerful at every rank level, so if you manage to have a party that wrecks everything at start, you may have some real trouble later on when your average power level is not enough at that point.

I also think it's a big mistake judging Hero power levels based on their performance on 2-3 quests out of a 12 quest campaign anyway......
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Malama wrote:
VonDodo wrote:
Promet wrote:
VonDodo wrote:

I mean even if you get the -1 or even -2 you have still 3 dices to roll for def

Watch out, when defending, you only roll one die per hit you are trying to defend. So let's say the enemy attacks with 3 hits and you have 2 passive armor, you only defend with 1 die.

This was indeed a mistake i did... but i don t think impacted the game so much.

I do think this impacts quite a bit. Rolling 1 die versus 3 dice against a single damage will make a huge difference. ~50% chance to take damage compared to ~10%. Will take roughly 5 times more damage if you roll 1 die compared to 3.
(Not exact numbers but gives an idea of the difference)

In first 2 acts i wouldn t have died once even with correct rule (only 3-4 times i rolled 3 dices on the tank with less than 3 damages)...but maybe i would have played more defensively...what concerns me is armor+shield stop so many Attacks even with potential collateral status without throwing a single dice, that managing to keep the tank as preferred target as long as possible was alone a winning tactic.

But i have to say i also misunderstood Auriel ice spell using only 3 blue dices instead of 3 dices + a red and still i got rid fast of all enemies.

Don't know really since i got Victoria to level 2 wounds weren t that of an issue (i also had 2 bandages).


From what i saw i can say this:
These things affect difficulty A LOT:

1) number of players
2) choice of character and powers
3) treasure cards
4) most of all TRAPS and ENEMY POWERS.


Those can change the game from being a nightmare to a cakewalk.


So randomness affects the game a lot...luckily not in a negative way since it gives you all the tools to react and adds variety.
 
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Vasilis
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VonDodo wrote:


In first 2 acts i wouldn t have died once even with correct rule (only 3-4 times i rolled 3 dices on the tank with less than 3 damages)...but maybe i would have played more defensively...what concerns me is armor+shield stop so many Attacks even with potential collateral status without throwing a single dice, that managing to keep the tank as preferred target as long as possible was alone a winning tactic.

There is a huge difference between rolling 1 DEF die per HIT and rolling the maximum number of DEF dice your armor allows.


Here are some rules that can help enemies beat heroes with 2 armor:

Blue Gremlin's Claws ignore 1 armor at all times

All Raiders' Knife attacks cause poison regardless of armor.

The Green Raider's Aimed Shot can easily do enough damage + critical even with 2 armor.

Gremlin's Spine ability gets a Domination bonus if available.

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Jonathan H
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VonDodo wrote:

These things affect difficulty A LOT:

3) treasure cards
4) most of all TRAPS and ENEMY POWERS.

Those can change the game from being a nightmare to a cakewalk.

I can agree with this Last night I played quest 1 with Tristan and Morrigan.
I went through most of the quest without issue, however I did not get a single good treasure.
Red gremlin spawned, and got enemy power : -1 hit. My 2 characters hitting with slash damage type, the red gremlin effectively had 3 passive armor. With a bit of bad dice luck, I didn't manage to kill it quickly enough and ran out of time. cry
 
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Christian Klinton
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VonDodo wrote:
Malama wrote:
VonDodo wrote:
Promet wrote:
VonDodo wrote:

I mean even if you get the -1 or even -2 you have still 3 dices to roll for def

Watch out, when defending, you only roll one die per hit you are trying to defend. So let's say the enemy attacks with 3 hits and you have 2 passive armor, you only defend with 1 die.

This was indeed a mistake i did... but i don t think impacted the game so much.

I do think this impacts quite a bit. Rolling 1 die versus 3 dice against a single damage will make a huge difference. ~50% chance to take damage compared to ~10%. Will take roughly 5 times more damage if you roll 1 die compared to 3.
(Not exact numbers but gives an idea of the difference)

In first 2 acts i wouldn t have died once even with correct rule (only 3-4 times i rolled 3 dices on the tank with less than 3 damages)...but maybe i would have played more defensively...what concerns me is armor+shield stop so many Attacks even with potential collateral status without throwing a single dice, that managing to keep the tank as preferred target as long as possible was alone a winning tactic.

But i have to say i also misunderstood Auriel ice spell using only 3 blue dices instead of 3 dices + a red and still i got rid fast of all enemies.

Don't know really since i got Victoria to level 2 wounds weren t that of an issue (i also had 2 bandages).


From what i saw i can say this:
These things affect difficulty A LOT:

1) number of players
2) choice of character and powers
3) treasure cards
4) most of all TRAPS and ENEMY POWERS.


Those can change the game from being a nightmare to a cakewalk.


So randomness affects the game a lot...luckily not in a negative way since it gives you all the tools to react and adds variety.

We dealt with 3 and 4 by having a rogue, really powerful with the (look at 2 treasure card choose one ability).
 
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Bowmangr wrote:


In All Raiders' Knife attacks cause poison regardless of armor.
this is relevant... you sure about it? i thought i read somewhere you have to deal at least 1 damage.


[quote]
Gremlin's Spine ability gets a Domination bonus if available.

[/q]
i don't think so its a reaction effetc not an attack, but could be wrong.


But most important 2 things i didn t get:
do i have to keep treasures, soulrank and moneys between missions or do i have to reset everything and use what listed in the book?

Do i have to assign a mandatory backgroubd talent for each hero?
I mean having arcane bonus on a soldier sounds weird :|
 
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Exik Exik
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VonDodo wrote:
[q="Bowmangr"]

In All Raiders' Knife attacks cause poison regardless of armor.
[q/]
this is relevant... you sure about it? i thought i read somewhere you have to deal at least 1 damage.


Poison is applied without any condition. So when the raiders attacks with knife the hero is poisoned no matter of the attack result.
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Vasilis
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VonDodo wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:


In All Raiders' Knife attacks cause poison regardless of armor.
this is relevant... you sure about it? i thought i read somewhere you have to deal at least 1 damage.

100% sure, no damage needed to apply poison. Poison can be extremely lethal even if you are armored and it's a way for monsters to completely bypass armor+shield defenses.


Quote:
[quote]
Gremlin's Spine ability gets a Domination bonus if available.

i don't think so its a reaction effetc not an attack, but could be wrong.[/q]

Actually it's both. It's a reaction ATTACK. As an attack it gets a domination bonus.

As you can see, 2 armor is not THAT big of a deal.

Quote:
But most important 2 things i didn t get:
do i have to keep treasures, soulrank and moneys between missions or do i have to reset everything and use what listed in the book?

If you are playing a campaign, then yes you carryover everything to the next scenario. If you are playing a standalone session than you need to use the relevant section of the quest that mentions what you have available.
All these rules are not in the Rulebook and are covered in the Scenario Book, so take a look there.

Quote:
Do i have to assign a mandatory backgroubd talent for each hero?
I mean having arcane bonus on a soldier sounds weird :|

Do not use background talents. They are being rebalanced and will be provided to backers when wave 2 arrives. Right now they don't really work as they should.
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Exik Exik
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VonDodo wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:




Gremlin's Spine ability gets a Domination bonus if available.

i don't think so its a reaction effetc not an attack, but could be wrong.

Spines is an attack so it gets supremacy bonus + 1. Gremlins also get bonus +1 for claw attack when controlling area. So Gremlin attacking in dominated area with claws gets + 2 dmg.
 
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Bowmangr wrote:


Actually it's both. It's a reaction ATTACK. As an attack it gets a domination bonus.

As you can see, 2 armor is not THAT big of a deal.

actually it is ._. since i rarely miss domination bonus figure leaving it to enemies.
 
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Well finally thank to all your directions i managed to play a real game.
So first of all you have my deepest thanks

Well except it seems i am really lucky because i got to the act 3 ending(i don't think i am spoiling anything at all but better safe than sorry ).

ACT III
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Using victoria skill to control an enemy i managed to put the boss ko even before attacking and then she did the remaining damage XD so it was oneshot it seems to me victoria is really really really strong.

and now another question...

What happens if i enter the space of a KO raider?
does he have a chance of escaping on missed save or not?


Doesn t make much sense he can escape but no rule tells he can't move.
 
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Christian Klinton
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VonDodo wrote:
Well finally thank to all your directions i managed to play a real game.
So first of all you have my deepest thanks

Well except it seems i am really lucky because i got to the act 3 ending(i don't think i am spoiling anything at all but better safe than sorry ).

ACT III
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Using victoria skill to control an enemy i managed to put the boss ko even before attacking and then she did the remaining damage XD so it was oneshot it seems to me victoria is really really really strong.

and now another question...

What happens if i enter the space of a KO raider?
does he have a chance of escaping on missed save or not?


Doesn t make much sense he can escape but no rule tells he can't move.

A k.o:ed enemy doesn't have his behaviour affected in any way. The ONLY thing is that he gets his armor reduced to 0 and that he counts for 0 when determining domination/controlling area . Remains K.O until next activation.
 
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Godvillig wrote:
VonDodo wrote:
Well finally thank to all your directions i managed to play a real game.
So first of all you have my deepest thanks

Well except it seems i am really lucky because i got to the act 3 ending(i don't think i am spoiling anything at all but better safe than sorry ).

ACT III
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Using victoria skill to control an enemy i managed to put the boss ko even before attacking and then she did the remaining damage XD so it was oneshot it seems to me victoria is really really really strong.

and now another question...

What happens if i enter the space of a KO raider?
does he have a chance of escaping on missed save or not?


Doesn t make much sense he can escape but no rule tells he can't move.

A k.o:ed enemy doesn't have his behaviour affected in any way. The ONLY thing is that he gets his armor reduced to 0 and that he counts for 0 when determining domination/controlling area . Remains K.O until next activation.

Ok but you would agree that a moving KO enemy doesn t make much sense :|
 
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Vasilis
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VonDodo wrote:
Godvillig wrote:
VonDodo wrote:
Well finally thank to all your directions i managed to play a real game.
So first of all you have my deepest thanks

Well except it seems i am really lucky because i got to the act 3 ending(i don't think i am spoiling anything at all but better safe than sorry ).

ACT III
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Using victoria skill to control an enemy i managed to put the boss ko even before attacking and then she did the remaining damage XD so it was oneshot it seems to me victoria is really really really strong.

and now another question...

What happens if i enter the space of a KO raider?
does he have a chance of escaping on missed save or not?


Doesn t make much sense he can escape but no rule tells he can't move.

A k.o:ed enemy doesn't have his behaviour affected in any way. The ONLY thing is that he gets his armor reduced to 0 and that he counts for 0 when determining domination/controlling area . Remains K.O until next activation.

Ok but you would agree that a moving KO enemy doesn t make much sense :|

It makes sense when you realize that KO doesn't necessarily mean "down on the ground senseless". It's more like 'out of combat position', Knocked Over or something along those lines.

The word KO is used as a keyword to describe a gameplay effect not to describe in detail what is happening to the character.
 
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Bowmangr wrote:
VonDodo wrote:
Godvillig wrote:
VonDodo wrote:
Well finally thank to all your directions i managed to play a real game.
So first of all you have my deepest thanks

Well except it seems i am really lucky because i got to the act 3 ending(i don't think i am spoiling anything at all but better safe than sorry ).

ACT III
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Using victoria skill to control an enemy i managed to put the boss ko even before attacking and then she did the remaining damage XD so it was oneshot it seems to me victoria is really really really strong.

and now another question...

What happens if i enter the space of a KO raider?
does he have a chance of escaping on missed save or not?


Doesn t make much sense he can escape but no rule tells he can't move.

A k.o:ed enemy doesn't have his behaviour affected in any way. The ONLY thing is that he gets his armor reduced to 0 and that he counts for 0 when determining domination/controlling area . Remains K.O until next activation.

Ok but you would agree that a moving KO enemy doesn t make much sense :|

It makes sense when you realize that KO doesn't necessarily mean "down on the ground senseless". It's more like 'out of combat position', Knocked Over or something along those lines.

The word KO is used as a keyword to describe a gameplay effect not to describe in detail what is happening to the character.

Its actually officially translated knocked out (in Italian and game designer are italian).


Also it makes some skills (sleep for example) underpowered....
 
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Vasilis
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VonDodo wrote:

Its actually officially translated knocked out (in Italian and game designer are italian).

Can you point me to the specific S&S rulebook page & passage where KO is officially mentioned as knocked out?


Quote:
Also it makes some skills (sleep for example) underpowered....

Why? Sleep also has the Stunned effect in order to prevent movement and simulate the effect EXACTLY because KO doesn't do it.

I think that you are trying to explain gameplay with thematic explanation based on a single word meaning. This is a mistake, especially when we are talking about keywords and will only confuse you.

The usual example that I tell everyone wondering about KO not actually meaning a total knock out effect complete with immobilizing the character is the Shocking Weapon enemy power card. Thematically, the enemy has a shocking weapon either literally (electricity/lightning) or metaphorically (it's ugly/scary/both) and the Hero that gets attacked by it is forced to move away from it.

Do you know which keyword does that? Bash. In this context however, the enemy doesn't really bash the hero, it's just the hero being scared or forced to move because the weapon is Shocking. It's still called Bash because this is the keyword for the "move away 1 area' effect. No reason to call it "fear" or "shock" or anything else because the gameplay effect is exactly the same.

Now, let's get back to KO. KO means the character cannot use his armor and cannot use his Combat activity until he removes the KO effect. There is no mention in the rules that says KO means "the character loses his senses and falls on the ground motionless". This is purely player speculation based on the keyword.
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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Bowmangr wrote:

Now, let's get back to KO. KO means the character cannot use his armor and cannot use his Combat activity until he removes the KO effect.
It also means it doesn't count for control\domination.



But yeah, I agree with you overall. I think it's easier to just think of it as "knocked down" rather than "knocked out". Similar to falling prone in RPGs.

It simply means you were dropped on the floor, not that you are unconsciousness.
 
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Bowmangr wrote:


Can you point me to the specific S&S rulebook page & passage where KO is officially mentioned as knocked out?
10.6.1 Italian manual
8.8.1 official beta english manual (the one in the KS page) to name some (i only have these with me original is at home).



Quote:

Why? Sleep also has the Stunned effect in order to prevent movement and simulate the effect EXACTLY because KO doesn't do it.
because stun wears away before anyone can profit it in 99% of cases with next encounter card while KO remains at least.


Quote:

I think that you are trying to explain gameplay with thematic explanation based on a single word meaning. This is a mistake, especially when we are talking about keywords and will only confuse you.
never said i am not doing that but mostly because the rule itself lacks logic in a certain situation.

not to mention you are arguing about KO acronym meaning that is far less logic.

Quote:

The usual example that I tell everyone wondering about KO not actually meaning a total knock out effect complete with immobilizing the character is the Shocking Weapon enemy power card. Thematically, the enemy has a shocking weapon either literally (electricity/lightning) or metaphorically (it's ugly/scary/both) and the Hero that gets attacked by it is forced to move away from it.

And you would be wrong since in this case we talk about a clear "on the ground" effect.

See "sleep" or "hammers" impact effect.
(arguably even with electricity you wouldn't be able to move by definition even if standing)


Quote:

Now, let's get back to KO. KO means the character cannot use his armor and cannot use his Combat activity until he removes the KO effect. There is no mention in the rules that says KO means "the character loses his senses and falls on the ground motionless". This is purely player speculation based on the keyword.

As i said ruling is clear... but when it comes to that passive it becomes illogic for stated reason....


Infact when it comes to heroes its even specified that To move an hero has to get rid of KO first....


 
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Jon Olsén
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I don't understand what you are arguing about right now. The rules are clear, you said it yourself, so there is no point arguing further.

KO is just a name of a body condition that has a set of rules. If you want it to be thematical, it is possible with a bit of a stretch, as Vasilis has described.

Better drop this arguing now IMO since this thread is not about whether or not KO has a good thematical representation.
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