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Subject: Command Card resolution rss

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Acedonte Euphrates
Samoa
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Played the game last night for the first time in over a year. We were a little fuzzy on some of the finer points of the rules, and had a couple of disagreements. The big one is explained below.

Just to cover: 2v2 Fed v KDF.

KDF starts turn one point from winning. Negh'var attacks the Prometheus, which is at Red alert. If the combat resolves, it's a guaranteed win (15 weapons vs 5 shields, iirc.)

Order of events:

1. Klingon declares attack, Negh'var vs Prometheus. Klingon then plays a card that reads, "The opponent's combat card has no effect on this combat" (can't remember the name of it).

2. Federation attempts to counter with a combat card that makes combat immediately end (I think Diplomatic Relations?), so he can delay our victory one more turn. Fed player argued that the Klingon card did absolutely nothing since Fed hadn't yet played a combat card when the Klingon card was played. He argued that the wording of the card meant it could only be played in response to another combat card being played.

Basically: With the wording on the card, can you invalidate a card that hasn't been played yet?
 
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Trevor Taylor
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The Klingon card stopped the Federation card from taking affect in my book.

First, the cards never happen simultaneously, the rulebook isn't clear, but all the player aids (which have been revised via Faq's and forum questions, mainly due to a not great rulebook) state on any opposed system test (of which combat is a specialised type) active player plays a card first, then the opposing player. The klingon card is not a 'reaction' card. There's no combat 'reaction' card. There are, however, various cards that can be played in response to specific actions. The Klingon card is essentially a kind of 'ambush' card which mean the victim does not have time to enact a strategy (play a combat card). It would have made more sense to not allow the opponent to play a card in this instance, but it's worded as it is because it can be played as the aggressor OR as the victim (a trap?).

If the combat was reversed, with the Fed as active player, their card would then have happened first, ending combat immediately (so BEFORE the Klingons play a card) and they would live to fight another turn. But the Klingons played the perfect card to end the game.
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Dave, or "Phineas" or "Tolstoy" or,
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Great explanation! negatrev is 100% correct, in my opinion.
 
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Ilias Sellountos
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While I strongly disagree with negatrev's use of theme as part of a rules interpretation/explanation (that NEVER ends well), I agree with the rules interpretation itself.
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Trevor Taylor
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Shemar wrote:
While I strongly disagree with negatrev's use of theme as part of a rules interpretation/explanation (that NEVER ends well), I agree with the rules interpretation itself.


Giving a description for the timing of a situation is VERY different from choosing the theme. I think you'll find Wizkids did that when they made the game...
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Scott
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As an adjunct to negatrev's answer,

Klingon launches combat.
Klingon chooses not to play card.

Federation annnounces playing of end combat card.

Klingon player is allowed to change his mind about playing a card, plays ignore enemy combat card.

Federation card is ignored. Klingon wins.

In this alternate version of the play order the Federation card does not prevent the Klingon playing a card because a)
Quote:
Every time you are involved in a System Test, you may play one card
and the Klingon guy was clearly in a system test and b) the timing discussed next.

Quote:
Step 2. You may play one Command Card from your hand that modifies the System you are using.
Step 3. Your opponent may play one Command Card from his hand to modify the System you are using. If you chose not to play a card in step
2, you may play a card now to respond to a card played by your opponent. (i.e. if you pass, and your opponent passes, you do not get to play
a card.)
Step 4. Add or subtract any modifiers for Crew Cards or System Tokens attached to the ship, and for any Command Cards you or your
opponent played.


While these quoted rules clearly refer to cards that apply "modifiers" in absence of any rules to the contrary it is sensible to apply the timing effects of +/- modifier cards to other command cards since they are all command cards.

Steps 2 and 3 are just decisions, you play the card, your opponent plays the card, there is no interpretation of card effects. It isn't until Step 4 that the card effects are applied. The decisions may be asynchronous but in OP's situation and in the alternate version I present the Federation card clearly is an entity that exists at the time the Klingon effect is applied and so it can be negated.
 
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Trevor Taylor
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blaecblaed wrote:
As an adjunct to negatrev's answer,

Klingon launches combat.
Klingon chooses not to play card.

Federation annnounces playing of end combat card.

Klingon player is allowed to change his mind about playing a card, plays ignore enemy combat card.

Federation card is ignored. Klingon wins.

In this alternate version of the play order the Federation card does not prevent the Klingon playing a card because a)
Quote:
Every time you are involved in a System Test, you may play one card
and the Klingon guy was clearly in a system test and b) the timing discussed next.

Quote:
Step 2. You may play one Command Card from your hand that modifies the System you are using.
Step 3. Your opponent may play one Command Card from his hand to modify the System you are using. If you chose not to play a card in step
2, you may play a card now to respond to a card played by your opponent. (i.e. if you pass, and your opponent passes, you do not get to play
a card.)
Step 4. Add or subtract any modifiers for Crew Cards or System Tokens attached to the ship, and for any Command Cards you or your
opponent played.


While these quoted rules clearly refer to cards that apply "modifiers" in absence of any rules to the contrary it is sensible to apply the timing effects of +/- modifier cards to other command cards since they are all command cards.

Steps 2 and 3 are just decisions, you play the card, your opponent plays the card, there is no interpretation of card effects. It isn't until Step 4 that the card effects are applied. The decisions may be asynchronous but in OP's situation and in the alternate version I present the Federation card clearly is an entity that exists at the time the Klingon effect is applied and so it can be negated.


I disagree.

Step 4. Only says add or subtract any modifiers. the cards played in Step 3 are NOT modifiers.
As soon as ANY card is played during Step 2 or 3, the effects are immediately resolved. So if Klingon plays in step 2, Fed can't play a card (or rather they can, but it wouldn't do anything)
If Fed plays a card in step 3, then Klingon can't play a card in response as the Fed card is played and ends combat immediately.
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Dave, or "Phineas" or "Tolstoy" or,
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Since this is still being discussed, here is what the Rules say regarding this particular aspect:

Star Trek Fleet Captains Rules pg 26 wrote:
“End This Combat” Cards
Some Combat Cards tell you to “End this combat.” If one of these cards is played, the combat ends immediately. Do not roll the dice for the Weapons Test or Shields Test. Neither vessel is harmed.
That should clear up any confusion. If a Card like that is played, it's over. Right then. The other player does not get to play a Card, if they have not already.

If the first player plays it, the 2nd player cannot play one, as Combat is over. If the first player passed, waiting to see what the 2nd player does, and the 2nd player plays it, the first player is out of luck, and the Combat is over.

Even if the first player played some other Card (as long is it wasn't "other Player's Card has no effect"), the play of a End Combat card by the 2nd player ends the Combat, and the 1st player's Card has no effect and is discarded. This has happened to me more times than I can count, and always after I have already played some awesome card that was going to win me the Combat.
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