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Subject: Timing when resolving dice results rss

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Brian Torrens
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While waiting for my copy to arrive and rereading the rules, I noticed something that I could not seem to locate an answer for regarding the timing of bam and diamond results on the roll.

The question I have is in regards to an ability like the level 4 Goblin Warriors (one of the cards in the repair file). When attacking, on a bam result, they receive efender -1 blue defense die. I don't see anywhere in the rulebook that says which die you lose. Does the player get to choose? So I could throw away my poorest result? How about the other way around? If a hero has an ability to force the enemy to lose a defense die, if the hero player gets to choose, would they not throw away the highest result?

If I read the rules correctly, when rolling the dice, defense bams and diamonds are handled first, then attack bams and diamonds. So when attacked by the Goblin Warriors:

1. Resolve defense specials
2. Resolve attack specials

So you would still get to use your defense bams and diamonds before being forced to potentially lose one?

Thoughts? Did I overlook this in the rules somewhere
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Stephan Beal
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Brian T wrote:
While waiting for my copy to arrive and rereading the rules, I noticed something that I could not seem to locate an answer for regarding the timing of bam and diamond results on the roll.

The question I have is in regards to an ability like the level 4 Goblin Warriors (one of the cards in the repair file). When attacking, on a bam result, they receive efender -1 blue defense die. I don't see anywhere in the rulebook that says which die you lose. Does the player get to choose? So I could throw away my poorest result? How about the other way around? If a hero has an ability to force the enemy to lose a defense die, if the hero player gets to choose, would they not throw away the highest result?


There's another (long, opinionated) thread about this which i unfortunately cannot locate right now :/. In short: the book doesn't appear to specify and there are multiple opinions on how to handle it.


Brian T wrote:
Thoughts? Did I overlook this in the rules somewhere


It seems to have been a brain-freeze on the designer's part, as "-1 blue die" implies that the die simply doesn't get rolled, but the game's mechanics call for rolling attack and defense dice at the same time.
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Brian Torrens
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sgbeal wrote:
Brian T wrote:
While waiting for my copy to arrive and rereading the rules, I noticed something that I could not seem to locate an answer for regarding the timing of bam and diamond results on the roll.

The question I have is in regards to an ability like the level 4 Goblin Warriors (one of the cards in the repair file). When attacking, on a bam result, they receive efender -1 blue defense die. I don't see anywhere in the rulebook that says which die you lose. Does the player get to choose? So I could throw away my poorest result? How about the other way around? If a hero has an ability to force the enemy to lose a defense die, if the hero player gets to choose, would they not throw away the highest result?


There's another (long, opinionated) thread about this which i unfortunately cannot locate right now :/. In short: the book doesn't specify and there are multiple opinions on how to handle it.


Brian T wrote:
Thoughts? Did I overlook this in the rules somewhere


It seems to have been a brain-freeze on the designer's part, as "-1 blue die" implies that the die simply doesn't get rolled, but the game's mechanics call for rolling attack and defense dice at the same time.


Good to know! I thought I was just not noticing where they mention it in the rules!

That was my understanding as well. Roll all the dice, resolve defense bams and diamonds, then attack bams and diamonds, then tally the total swords vs. shields for damage. If an enemy forces you to discard a die, I would say that the player who rolled the dice gets to choose.

Hopefully someone at CMON/Guillotine will give us an official ruling on this
 
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Stephan Beal
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Found the thread (cleverly labeled "Rules question") and there's an official answer to at least part of the "which die to drop" question in response #26534623.
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Brian Torrens
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Thanks!
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Brian T wrote:
-snip-
If I read the rules correctly, when rolling the dice, defense bams and diamonds are handled first, then attack bams and diamonds. So when attacked by the Goblin Warriors:

1. Resolve defense specials
2. Resolve attack specials

So you would still get to use your defense bams and diamonds before being forced to potentially lose one?

Thoughts? Did I overlook this in the rules somewhere


Hi, opinionated poster from other thread here.

I think the note for Enchantments that remove dice (page 53) is meant to supersede the usual order of 'defense enchants then attack enchants'. Being able to use your bams / diamonds before the die is removed 'as if it weren't rolled' would be an odd design choice and make this enchant even weaker on enemies than the official ruling just made it.

For reference, the text I'm referring to is:
Quote:
NOTE: Enchantments that subtract dice are activated after the roll, so the Hero can choose to remove the dice with the highest results. Skills that subtract dice do so before the roll, so those dice aren’t even rolled.
 
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Peter Baker
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Personally I will play as follows based on the text found page 34:

Quote:
REMEMBER: Any effcts that subtract dice before rolling should be applied after any effects that add dice have been applied (respecting the 3 dice of each type cap)


Step 1: A: Determine Dice Rolled for attack and defence based on weapon and minio cards involved any bonuses (3 dice of one colour cap).
Step 1: B: Remove any dice where negative modifiers may effect the attack or defence dice pool

Step 2: A: Roll dice calculate results and based on results and apply any available defensive modifiers
Step 2: B: Now apply remaining offensive modifiers based on results.
Step 3: Inflict pain (Yada Yada)

I don't have the game yet so not sure if there are other cards that make this more complex, but I feel pages 33 & 34 cover this process quite well, it should have probably been 5 step explanation though.

Edit: I just noticed the reference to enchantments mixing things up, back to the manual
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Note: That text box about removal of dice via enchantment being after the roll is very important. You also have to add flipping of dice to this same timing, I think.

So the timing really comes down to this, with each step being fully resolved before the next starts, and if it is important, defender activates abilities before the attacker does:

1: Apply effects which add dice
2: Cap dice of each colour to 3
3: Apply effects which subtract dice
4: Roll all dice
5: Apply Re-roll effects (and after each Re-roll, 'After a Re-roll' effects)
6: Apply effects which flip dice
7: Apply enchantment (bam/diamond) effects which subtract dice (players choose)
8: Apply enchantment effects which add dice to roll a new one if you are under the cap (don't ask if this can be re-rolled )
9: Apply effects which affect blank dice
10: Apply Defender's Bams/Diamonds apart from those above
11: Apply Attacker's Bams/Diamonds apart from those above
12: Inflict Pain!


I think that's everything... Let me know if I may have missed something.


Edit: Ignore the above list, it is wrong. See my posts below for revisions of this list.
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Brian Torrens
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Clipper wrote:
Note: That text box about removal of dice via enchantment being after the roll is very important. You also have to add flipping of dice to this same timing, I think.

So the timing really comes down to this, with each step being fully resolved before the next starts, and if it is important, defender activates abilities before the attacker does:

1: Apply effects which add dice
2: Cap dice of each colour to 3
3: Apply effects which subtract dice
4: Roll all dice
5: Apply Re-roll effects (and after each Re-roll, 'After a Re-roll' effects)
6: Apply effects which flip dice
7: Apply enchantment (bam/diamond) effects which subtract dice (players choose)
8: Apply enchantment effects which add dice to roll a new one if you are under the cap (don't ask if this can be re-rolled )
9: Apply effects which affect blank dice
10: Apply Defender's Bams/Diamonds apart from those above
11: Apply Attacker's Bams/Diamonds apart from those above
12: Inflict Pain!


I think that's everything... Let me know if I may have missed something.


I think you have some extra steps in there that are not correct (particularly steps 7 and 8).

1. The Dice Roll: Determine your dice pool (basic dice +/- dice for skills and abilities) and roll them. Then re-rolls, followed by rerolls of blank results, followed by "flipping" of blank results (depending on what sort of rerolls you have available of course).

2. Resolve the Enchantments: First, resolve the bams and diamonds related to the defenders enchantments, then resolve the bams and diamonds related to the attackers enchantments (pg34).

3. Inflict Pain: Tally the swords vs. shields to determine the final damage result.

So in the case I was looking at involving the Level 4 Goblin Warriors:

If they attack a hero, after rolling the dice (and taking care of any rerolls and flips), first the hero would be entitled to use any bams and diamonds possible from his defence roll. Once that was completed, the Goblin Warriors would be allowed to use any of their bams and diamonds. If for example, the Goblins had rolled one bam and one diamond, the hero would be forced to lose one blue die (of his choice) and the goblins would then add and roll an additional red die (respecting the limit of 3 of course).

In fact, in the above example, the hero could even use a bam/diamond on a die that he would later be forced (or choose) to lose! It would also mean that if the Goblins were to add and roll an additional red die, they would not be entitled to reroll it as that part of the attack sequence has passed.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I can accept that step 8 may be wrong, but step 7 must happen where it does. That is due to the description of the Skills for subtracting dice by enchantment:

MD Rules (p53) wrote:
NOTE: Enchantments that subtract dice are activated after the roll,
so the Hero can choose to remove the dice with the highest results.
...
Attacker -X Attack Dice – Subtract any combination of X Red
and/or Yellow Attack dice from the Attacker’s roll (after dice are
rolled, if this is an Enchantment).
...
Defender -X Defense Dice – Subtract any combination of X
Green and/or Blue Defense dice from the Defender’s roll (after
dice are rolled, if this is an Enchantment).

All three instances are after the roll, and this has to be before the enchantments start being applied. Why is that? Because if you don't wait, then the Defender can spend Bams and Diamonds before the die they got the Bams and Diamonds from are removed!

So the subtract dice effect I have at position 7 does have priority. I gave flipping dice and adding dice the same priority for similar reasons of not having dice results change after they are used. That's why 8 is where it is.

Edit: Actually, I'm beginning to think that maybe steps 6, 7 and 8 should actually be combined into a single step. So they are kind of 6a), 6b) and 6c). No fixed order is ever really going to sort these out...

Edit 2: For that matter, step 9 should also be included as 6d), as you could use a bam from that to subtract dice...

Edit 3: So the revised order is:
1: Apply effects which add dice
2: Cap dice of each colour to 3
3: Apply effects which subtract dice
4: Roll all dice
5: Apply Re-roll effects (and after each Re-roll, 'After a Re-roll' effects)
6: Apply effects which happen after a roll including:
• Effects which flip dice (enchantment or not)
• Effects which affect blank dice (enchantment or not)
• Enchantment (bam/diamond) effects which subtract dice
• Enchantment effects which add dice (do not go over cap)
7: Apply Defender's other Bams/Diamonds
8: Apply Attacker's other Bams/Diamonds
9: Inflict Pain!
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Brian Torrens
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Clipper wrote:
I can accept that step 8 may be wrong, but step 7 must happen where it does. That is due to the description of the Skills for subtracting dice by enchantment:

MD Rules (p53) wrote:
NOTE: Enchantments that subtract dice are activated after the roll,
so the Hero can choose to remove the dice with the highest results.
...
Attacker -X Attack Dice – Subtract any combination of X Red
and/or Yellow Attack dice from the Attacker’s roll (after dice are
rolled, if this is an Enchantment).
...
Defender -X Defense Dice – Subtract any combination of X
Green and/or Blue Defense dice from the Defender’s roll (after
dice are rolled, if this is an Enchantment).

All three instances are after the roll, and this has to be before the enchantments start being applied. Why is that? Because if you don't wait, then the Defender can spend Bams and Diamonds before the die they got the Bams and Diamonds from are removed!

So the subtract dice effect I have at position 7 does have priority. I gave flipping dice and adding dice the same priority for similar reasons of not having dice results change after they are used. That's why 8 is where it is.

Edit: Actually, I'm beginning to think that maybe steps 6, 7 and 8 should actually be combined into a single step. So they are kind of 6a), 6b) and 6c). No fixed order is ever really going to sort these out...

Edit 2: For that matter, step 9 should also be included as 6d), as you could use a bam from that to subtract dice...


I'm still not sure where you are getting that timing from... On page 34 and again on page 53, it specifically states that "In case of a timing confict, Defense Skills and Enchantments always take effect before Attack Skills and Enchantments." So you would certainly be entitled to use your defensive bams and diamonds before being forced to lose dice.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Brian T wrote:
I'm still not sure where you are getting that timing from... On page 34 and again on page 53, it specifically states that "In case of a timing confict, Defense Skills and Enchantments always take effect before Attack Skills and Enchantments." So you would certainly be entitled to use your defensive bams and diamonds before being forced to lose dice.

I agree that is one interpretation of the rules, but it seems very odd that you could get the benefits of the things that will no longer be in your pool a moment later. I believe that the rule on 53 about it being after the roll is specifically giving it a different timing to spending the other Enchantments.

I don't know for sure, though. Hopefully we can get some clarification out of CMON.
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Brian Torrens
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Clipper wrote:
Brian T wrote:
I'm still not sure where you are getting that timing from... On page 34 and again on page 53, it specifically states that "In case of a timing confict, Defense Skills and Enchantments always take effect before Attack Skills and Enchantments." So you would certainly be entitled to use your defensive bams and diamonds before being forced to lose dice.

I agree that is one interpretation of the rules, but it seems very odd that you could get the benefits of the things that will no longer be in your pool a moment later. I believe that the rule on 53 about it being after the roll is specifically giving it a different timing to spending the other Enchantments.

I don't know for sure, though. Hopefully we can get some clarification out of CMON.


Keep in mind that losing defence dice may also cause you to lose precious shield results. I'm still awaiting my copy to actually play the game so it will help to see it in action, instead of just reading and postulating . Just waiting for it to clear customs in Canada.....
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Brian T wrote:
Keep in mind that losing defence dice may also cause you to lose precious shield results. I'm still awaiting my copy to actually play the game so it will help to see it in action, instead of just reading and postulating . Just waiting for it to clear customs in Canada.....


The order in which you lose shields is relatively unimportant, as you only compare swords to shields in the very last step, Inflict Pain!.

Bam and Diamond resolution order is much more important. Being able to use bam/diamond results before they are removed adds a layer of complexity and book-keeping that I don't think was intended. I agree with Jorgen here that the skill descriptions and red note imply dice removal preempts the 'defends before attackers' rule.

Someone else can send CMON an email this time, I sent the last one
Clipper wrote:

Edit 3: So the revised order is:
1: Apply effects which add dice
2: Cap dice of each colour to 3
3: Apply effects which subtract dice
4: Roll all dice
5: Apply Re-roll effects (and after each Re-roll, 'After a Re-roll' effects)
6: Apply effects which happen after a roll including:
• Effects which flip dice (enchantment or not)
• Effects which affect blank dice (enchantment or not)
• Enchantment (bam/diamond) effects which subtract dice
• Enchantment effects which add dice (do not go over cap)
7: Apply Defender's other Bams/Diamonds
8: Apply Attacker's other Bams/Diamonds
9: Inflict Pain!


Shouldn't 6c and 6d be swapped to keep it consistent with steps 1 and 3? Or are you applying the 'defender enchants before attacker enchants' rule here?

I also have some questions over the order of flipping dice, blank dice, and re-rolls (since as written, extra dice added by enchants can't be re-rolled, flipped, or have their blank face acted upon) but you're probably right that no fixed order would ever really sort this out.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I figured out how to shoot CMON a question and sent it off earlier today.

DoctorBandage wrote:
Shouldn't 6c and 6d be swapped to keep it consistent with steps 1 and 3? Or are you applying the 'defender enchants before attacker enchants' rule here?

Defender abilities before Attacker abilities and all the abilities in step 6 can be performed in any order for each player.

Quote:
I also have some questions over the order of flipping dice, blank dice, and re-rolls (since as written, extra dice added by enchants can't be re-rolled, flipped, or have their blank face acted upon) but you're probably right that no fixed order would ever really sort this out.

Yeah, I'm not really sure about that, and it didn't form part of the question I sent. Once we know where the subtract happens, I may send off a follow-up, but the question I ask will actually be highly dependent on the first response I receive.
 
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God that looks like a lot of fiddly checking for EACH attack?
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Doctor Bandage
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Clipper wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Shouldn't 6c and 6d be swapped to keep it consistent with steps 1 and 3? Or are you applying the 'defender enchants before attacker enchants' rule here?

Defender abilities before Attacker abilities and all the abilities in step 6 can be performed in any order for each player.


I don't think I was clear enough here. If step 6 can be performed in any order, that rubs up against the 'subtract dice only after adding and capping at 3 dice' precedent set in Steps 1 and 3. If you can do step 6 in any order, particularly these parts:
Quote:
• Enchantment (bam/diamond) effects which subtract dice
• Enchantment effects which add dice (do not go over cap)

then you could circumvent the penalty of negative dice enchants.

For an example, let's say a hero rolls 3 yellow dice. They get a bam that can be spent on Attack (bam): +1 yellow die. The defender gets a bam that can be spent on Defend (bam): Attacker -1 yellow die.

If you do the defender's bam first (as the page 53 rules imply) then the attacker still gets 3 yellow dice total, as the attacker's enchant simply adds the die back (although it should be rolled again as if it were new).

If you do the attacker's bam first (as steps 1-3 and the red text from page 34 imply) then the attacker will get 2 yellow dice total, as the extra die from the bam would be wasted (capped at 3 dice) and then the defender's enchant would remove a die.

I'm not sure which one of these interpretations is correct, as both interpretations clash against at least one rule as written.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I agree things aren't in any way intuitive nor perfect right now.

I'm going to await this response, though. If it is that there is no special timing for subtracting dice, then many of our questions will fall into place. It'll be unfair, but I don't think we are ever going to find a fair ordering of effects.

I somewhat actually want to be wrong for that reason!
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Doctor Bandage
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Did you contact CMON through the KS 'ask a question' button? Suzy got back to me within a day.

If there's no special timing and every enchant is strictly defender then attacker, I suppose there's pros and cons for each side. Defenders may get to act first, but attackers can tailor their enchants with more information. Defender added +9 shields? Forget it, I'll spend my bam on a stun. Defender took my die away? I'll add it back!

The only niggling thing left would be Brian's question on whether effects from bams/diamonds on removed dice can still be used.
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Brian Torrens
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Clipper wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Shouldn't 6c and 6d be swapped to keep it consistent with steps 1 and 3? Or are you applying the 'defender enchants before attacker enchants' rule here?

Defender abilities before Attacker abilities and all the abilities in step 6 can be performed in any order for each player.


I don't think I was clear enough here. If step 6 can be performed in any order, that rubs up against the 'subtract dice only after adding and capping at 3 dice' precedent set in Steps 1 and 3. If you can do step 6 in any order, particularly these parts:
Quote:
• Enchantment (bam/diamond) effects which subtract dice
• Enchantment effects which add dice (do not go over cap)

then you could circumvent the penalty of negative dice enchants.

For an example, let's say a hero rolls 3 yellow dice. They get a bam that can be spent on Attack (bam): +1 yellow die. The defender gets a bam that can be spent on Defend (bam): Attacker -1 yellow die.

If you do the defender's bam first (as the page 53 rules imply) then the attacker still gets 3 yellow dice total, as the attacker's enchant simply adds the die back (although it should be rolled again as if it were new).

If you do the attacker's bam first (as steps 1-3 and the red text from page 34 imply) then the attacker will get 2 yellow dice total, as the extra die from the bam would be wasted (capped at 3 dice) and then the defender's enchant would remove a die.

I'm not sure which one of these interpretations is correct, as both interpretations clash against at least one rule as written.



In your example, with the rules as written, the defender would cause the attacker to lose one yellow die first (defenders enchantments take priority). The player would select one of his yellow dice and discard it. Then the attackers enchantments would take effect. If the attacker still had a bam available that allowed him to roll an additional yellow die, you would take one and roll it now. Since this step is after the rerolls, you would be stuck with what ever the dice result is.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Brian T wrote:
In your example, with the rules as written, the defender would cause the attacker to lose one yellow die first (defenders enchantments take priority). The player would select one of his yellow dice and discard it. Then the attackers enchantments would take effect. If the attacker still had a bam available that allowed him to roll an additional yellow die, you would take one and roll it now. Since this step is after the rerolls, you would be stuck with what ever the dice result is.


Brian, the rules as written are unclear if enchantments that add or subtract dice supersede the normal 'defenders before attackers' order. Clipper has reached out to CMON for comment on this.

If they do, then the follow up question is whether 'defenders before attackers' still applies when adding or removing dice or should it follow the normal rules that state subtraction follows addition, regardless of who's attacking. That's what my example was about.
 
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Brian Torrens
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Brian T wrote:
In your example, with the rules as written, the defender would cause the attacker to lose one yellow die first (defenders enchantments take priority). The player would select one of his yellow dice and discard it. Then the attackers enchantments would take effect. If the attacker still had a bam available that allowed him to roll an additional yellow die, you would take one and roll it now. Since this step is after the rerolls, you would be stuck with what ever the dice result is.


Brian, the rules as written are unclear if enchantments that add or subtract dice supersede the normal 'defenders before attackers' order. Clipper has reached out to CMON for comment on this.

If they do, then the follow up question is whether 'defenders before attackers' still applies when adding or removing dice or should it follow the normal rules that state subtraction follows addition, regardless of who's attacking. That's what my example was about.


Hopefully CMON can sort it out.

To be honest, I don't see a problem with the rules as written. The whole "removing dice first" thing is not mentioned anywhere in the rules and I really don't see the issue as it stands.... Use defenders enchantments first, then attackers enchantments. All the steps listed earlier just seem to add extra steps and confuse things. Anyhow, I'm sure there will be a faq posted before too long...
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Brian T wrote:
The whole "removing dice first" thing is not mentioned


Page 34 at the top, in red.

MD Rule pg 34 wrote:
REMEMBER: Any effects that subtract dice before rolling should be applied after any effects that add dice have been applied (respecting the 3 dice of each type cap).


Also, Page 53 in three places.

MD Rule pg 53 wrote:

NOTE: Enchantments that subtract dice are activated after the roll,
so the Hero can choose to remove the dice with the highest results.
...
Attacker -X Attack Dice – Subtract any combination of X Red
and/or Yellow Attack dice from the Attacker’s roll (after dice are
rolled, if this is an Enchantment).
...
Defender -X Defense Dice – Subtract any combination of X
Green and/or Blue Defense dice from the Defender’s roll (after
dice are rolled, if this is an Enchantment).


Knowing CMON, they'll likely say players decide or double down on the 'defenders before attackers' while ignoring the question about lost bams/diamonds. We'll see.
 
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Brian Torrens
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Brian T wrote:
The whole "removing dice first" thing is not mentioned


Page 34 at the top, in red.

MD Rule pg 34 wrote:
REMEMBER: Any effects that subtract dice before rolling should be applied after any effects that add dice have been applied (respecting the 3 dice of each type cap).


Also, Page 53 in three places.

MD Rule pg 53 wrote:

NOTE: Enchantments that subtract dice are activated after the roll,
so the Hero can choose to remove the dice with the highest results.
...
Attacker -X Attack Dice – Subtract any combination of X Red
and/or Yellow Attack dice from the Attacker’s roll (after dice are
rolled, if this is an Enchantment).
...
Defender -X Defense Dice – Subtract any combination of X
Green and/or Blue Defense dice from the Defender’s roll (after
dice are rolled, if this is an Enchantment).


Knowing CMON, they'll likely say players decide or double down on the 'defenders before attackers' while ignoring the question about lost bams/diamonds. We'll see.


The "Remember" item on pg 34 is specifically referring to skills that add or subtract dice before the roll. Reminding you that you should subtract dice after you add them in this situation.

Then you roll, and spend defenders, then attackers enchantments.

I can just imagine the many number of different ways this game will be played around the world. Thankfully I do not imagine it will be played in any sort of tournament, so really as long as your gaming group is happy with the interpretation of the rules....

I can also imagine that as more and more of us receive our copy of the game and start playing, that Gullotine will be able to start collecting the info for a proper faq.
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Brian T wrote:
The "Remember" item on pg 34 is specifically referring to skills that add or subtract dice before the roll. Reminding you that you should subtract dice after you add them in this situation.

-snip-

I can also imagine that as more and more of us receive our copy of the game and start playing, that Gullotine will be able to start collecting the info for a proper faq.


Page 17 has the same rule without the qualifier 'before dice are rolled'. It also says ANY dice penalty, which would include those from enchantments.

Also, FAQs usually come from discussions like these, so it's in our best interest not to dismiss ambiguities in the rules.

Let's not debate this any further and wait for Clipper's email to be answered. I suspect CMON will confirm you're correct, but the issue is currently ambiguous.
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