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Subject: ABBA Turn Order rss

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Jason C
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I just replied to a thread where a designer has a problem with "Turn Order Advantage." I suggested using the ABBA system. This got me wondering, do any games use this system for turn order?

I don't have enough experience to know whether any games use this system as I've only been part of this great community a couple of years but I would like to know;
A) Do any games use it.
B) Would/Does it help/work?

For those that don't know. The ABBA system is currently on trial in football for penalty shootouts.
Quote:
The new system being trialled by UEFA ensures that the team that shoots first alternates. The first pair of penalties is A then B, the second is B then A, and then AB again. This is nicknamed the ABBA system because it goes: ABBA ABBA.... until there's a winner.

Note: I'm happy to link the quote's source, I was just unsure about putting external links.
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Trent Boardgamer
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Yes some (but not many) games use this, I'm just struggling to recall which ones off the top of my head.

I'll see if I can recall some and post back if I do.

There are also some variations on this where players get increasing options/money the further along the turn order they are (Lords of Waterdeep for instance).
 
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Stefan
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The official two-player variant for Last Will does when determining turn order in the first phase of each round.
A: Deny one option
B: Pick
B: Deny
A: Pick
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Ian Bennetts
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A number of games use this in initial setup...

Catan in placement of starting roads and settlements.
Troyes Placing meeples in the Bishopric, City Hall and barracks.

...are two that occur to me. I don't think I've played any games where this order is used throughout though.
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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Some games use snake/boomerang order which looks like ABBA but where each player does two actions in one round. Examples are Sagrada and Grand Austria Hotel. The latter has sufficient lengthy actions which makes it a bit annoying to have to wait if you are first/last in a four player game.

However, in those cases, the player ordering shifts clockwise like in a "regular" game.
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Chris Dugas
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If I'm understanding your explanation of ABBA, Sagrada uses that turn-order system. It's a dice drafting game, and in, for example, a 4-player game, turn order would go:

Roll double the number of dice as there are players plus one extra die.
Player 1 drafts 1 die.
Player 2 drafts 1 die.
Player 3 drafts 1 die.
Player 4 drafts 1 die.
Player 4 drafts 1 die (2nd turn in a row for player 4)
Player 3 drafts 1 die.
Player 2 drafts 1 die.
Player 1 drafts 1 die.
Extra die used as a round marker.
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Florian Woo
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I think there are a lot of games that do this for the initial setup / draft. E.g. 7 Wonders Duel or Core Worlds additionally to the ones mentioned above.

But as a turn order throughout the complete game? I can't recall any...
 
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Laura Creighton
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I am having problems constructing what ABBA would look like in games that are being played by more than 2 people.
 
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Bryan Carpenter
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Mr. Jack uses ABBA turn order.

In round one The Inspector takes a turn with one character. Then Mr Jack takes a turn with a character immediately followed by a turn with another character. Finally The Inspector gets a turn with the last character.

This swaps in round two, then swaps back again in round three, etc. So the turn orders look like: ABBA BAAB ABBA BAAB, etc.

There's even a little diagram under the round marker to remind players:
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Bryan Carpenter
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lacreighton wrote:
I am having problems constructing what ABBA would look like in games that are being played by more than 2 people.


I guess, going by SilentCat's Sagrada example above it would look like:

ABCDDCBA

Which is also the same as the set up round in Settlers of Catan.
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Challie Coppel
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Terra Mystica uses this for initial set up.
Imperial Settlers uses it for card draft each round.
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Freelance Police
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The Mayfair train and Swedish pop group games did this.
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Vincent
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Doesn't Power Grid work like this for its different phases?Mini Rails uses it for its setup.
 
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Bill Cook
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I think there's one about Waterloo whistle
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Dennis de Vries
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In a way the teamplayer (3- and 4-player game) of Star Wars: Rebellion uses this system.

Rebel Admiral - Imperial Admiral - Imperial General - Rebel General

So it's actually an A1B1B2A2-system. (Admiral and General roles dictate the leaders you can use at that moment)

In my opinion it gives the game an extra tactical layer where you have to (and can plan) missions that complement each other without interference from an opposing mission/army movement. Some players do not like this, others (like me) like it.
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Eric Engelmann
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Jason_ftw wrote:
I just replied to a thread where a designer has a problem with "Turn Order Advantage." I suggested using the ABBA system. This got me wondering, do any games use this system for turn order?


Grand Austria Hotel
 
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Tara Tallan
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This is a good question with some good responses, and yet I am amazed that so many of you have resisted saying things like, the ABBA system in board games is "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!" or "The Winner Takes it All!"


...I couldn't.
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Cornixt
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ttallan wrote:
This is a good question with some good responses, and yet I am amazed that so many of you have resisted saying things like, the ABBA system in board games is "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!" or "The Winner Takes it All!"


...I couldn't.

You didn't mention "The Name of the Game".
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Kirk
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Wait, this thread isn't about Fernando?!?
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Thomas Brendel
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The quoted description casts it as pairs of AB and BA, but it could equally well be given as A followed by BB, AA, ...

Innovation gives two actions per turn, except only one on the very first turn. Many other games do something similar. I feel this is essentially equivalent to this ABBA system.
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Larry L
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jobby wrote:
lacreighton wrote:
I am having problems constructing what ABBA would look like in games that are being played by more than 2 people.


I guess, going by SilentCat's Sagrada example above it would look like:

ABCDDCBA

Which is also the same as the set up round in Settlers of Catan.


Alternatively, passing the first player marker: ABCDBCDACDAB,
Which reduces to ABBA for two players. Many games use this system. Castles of Mad King Ludwig, for example.
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Bill Gallagher
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Sam and Max wrote:
The Mayfair train ... games did this.

Aye. In the Empire Builder ("crayon rails") series of games, the initial track builds are done 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1 (first player builds track, then #2, #3 and #4 - then in reverse order starting with #4).

In games with three initial track building rounds, the third round goes 1,2,3,4.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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James Arias
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I'd have to check the rules, but doesn't skirmish mode of Star wars imperial assault work like this?
 
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Joe H
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Initial drafting in Feudality uses this.
 
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