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Subject: Does Gorgutt's Parry ability make thematic sense? rss

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Eric Selander
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Perhaps someone can explain to me the reasoning behind having parries from one player's roll carry forward or back to another player's. I know Richard always makes design decisions considering theme first, but I just can't see it in this case.

And, from a mechanics perspective, the required logistical changes with group combat against Gorgutt cause added complexity and confusion.

It sure seems to me that it would be much simpler and thematic to have players attack sequentially, each suffering only their own parries. Yes, that may make success easier since some parries may be "lost," but that could be balanced another way.

(I searched the forum, but couldn't find answers....)
 
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Jeff Wood
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
Gorgutt doesn't affect other players' dice rolls. Each 1 rolled during one player's attack blocks a successful hit. It is not a 'heal' regaining hit points.

Gorgutt is just a highly skilled warrior, not magic.
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Eric Selander
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
From the FAQ:
Quote:
Gorgutt is special because of his parry skill requiring that all heroes roll their dice as any hits scored by the first character may get cancelled by 1's rolled by the second or third hero’s roll.
 
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Scott Miller
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
Thematically, all players are always attacking each general together, at the same time. The taking turns aspect is mostly to determine who is the minion "slayer" after a general's defeat. Realistically, once a general reaches 0 health, the remaining rolls are moot because the general is dead; this is not necessarily true of Gorgutt, as we must play out the attack from every angle to see how Gorgutt actually fared.

But your question was, how does player A's roll determine whether player B's attack succeeded? The answer is, it doesn't. What's really happening is that Gorgutt gets a defense roll for each die a player rolls. Every time a player rolls a 1, that defense roll is successful. And again, since all attacks are essentially simultaneous, his defense rolls carry across all players.
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Tyrell Wood
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
I agree that he is simply a skilled warrior. If his ability was not what it is he would be very easy to defeat. Almost too easy. So thematically for me it makes complete sense.
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Eric Selander
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
I know this sounds like I'm being critical, but I'm really hoping there's a satisfying counter argument. It might just be the fault of my perspective, but I'll try to explain further why I'm having trouble reconciling the theme and mechanics of Gorgutt's Parry ability.

It might make a little more sense if all heroes in the combat are fighting simultaneously. But I don't see anywhere that battles are considered to be simultaneous, even thematically, either in the rule book or the FAQ. On the contrary, they are always described in sequential terms.

Again, from the FAQ:
Quote:
Against most Generals the battle would end as soon as the slaying blow is landed, but not against the Orc General. Since parries carry over (1's rolled parry a hit) from one player to the next, they work in reverse also. Therefore, all players must roll all dice even if in a 4 hero attack the Orc General was slain by the second hero rolling. If the 3rd hero rolled a 1 and no hits, he has blocked one of the earlier attacks (coming back to life with 1 wound remaining on his wound track). So, it is possible for Gorgutt to appear slain, only to be brought back to life and possibly slain by a later hero in the combat. [bold mine]
 
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Scott Miller
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
I don't interpret that section of the FAQ as thematic. I believe it was worded in such a way as to emphasize the necessity of all players to roll their dice. Thematically, simultaneous attack is the only thing that makes sense, and it is the only reason I can think of to have the attacks occur on the same turn. Rather, it's playability that stands in the way of all players rolling all dice at the same time.

I may very well be overruled on this, but I don't see why it would be any other way.
 
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Clint Ghosn
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
Every natural roll of 1 is Gorgutt's parry while in battle with the heroes. It doesn't have to be your attack - he can parry another hero's attack if he "chooses" to.

Keep in mind that you are all fighting him together. It's not like, "hey im done, wizard it's your turn to fight the green guy" says the ranger, "good shot" the wizard replied. "ooh i cant wait to fight him next!" says the eagle rider with an enthusiastic tone.
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Richard Launius
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense


Clint is correct. All are attacking at the same time and Gorgutt is is in the middle of the flurry of attacks blocking and striking back. The fact that you roll one hero at a time is for game control process and establishing the Slayer, should the team slay him.

To me, there has never been an issue of thematics, I can always picture the brutal Orc leader in the middle of the battle, fighting for his life and the survival of his army in service to the Dark Lord.

In any event, thanks for playing and I hope the game creates the grand story for all of you that is always gives me.

Richard
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Jeff Wood
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
Love this game.

So with this parry ability, the one who struck the blow taking Gorgutt to zero may not be Slayer as the next dice roller could Parry and strike, becoming the Slayer?

Richard Launius wrote:


Clint is correct. All are attacking at the same time and Gorgutt is is in the middle of the flurry of attacks blocking and striking back. The fact that you roll one hero at a time is for game control process and establishing the Slayer, should the team slay him.

To me, there has never been an issue of thematics, I can always picture the brutal Orc leader in the middle of the battle, fighting for his life and the survival of his army in service to the Dark Lord.

In any event, thanks for playing and I hope the game creates the grand story for all of you that is always gives me.

Richard
 
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Eric Selander
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
Richard, thanks. I hadn't found any indication that combat was simultaneous, but I can picture that.

Thinking about the combat theme and mechanics in general: if you had everyone roll simultaneously and then the player whose turn it was got to decide on the order, would it cause some imbalances or diminish tension? I'm guessing it would remove some in-battle decisions, such as whether or not to play Special cards.
 
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Eric Selander
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
Cinnibar wrote:
Love this game.

So with this parry ability, the one who struck the blow taking Gorgutt to zero may not be Slayer as the next dice roller could Parry and strike, becoming the Slayer?


Exactly. From another thread in which this question arose:

Richard Launius wrote:
All dice rolls are made and parries cancel out hits. Parries carry over and even can work in reverse with player 1 rolling 3 hits and no parries, but player 2 rolling 3 parries to cancel out the first player's hits. So, it is not possible to kill Gorgutt until all dice have been resolved even if he is at or below the skull on his card as the next roller may give him back wounds by parrying earlier hits.

The player that actually lands the slaying blow - the hit from which he does not recover, is the Slayer.
 
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Scott Miller
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
grithog wrote:
Thinking about the combat theme and mechanics in general: if you had everyone roll simultaneously and then the player whose turn it was got to decide on the order, would it cause some imbalances or diminish tension? I'm guessing it would remove some in-battle decisions, such as whether or not to play Special cards.

I think an even more practical issue is having enough dice (and a big enough space to roll them all). My guess would be that Richard already had the combat mechanism in place before deciding on Gorgutt's ability, and it wasn't worth changing the mechanism just for that.
 
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Matt Smith
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Re: Gorgutt's Parry ability doesn't make thematic sense
grithog wrote:
Richard, thanks. I hadn't found any indication that combat was simultaneous, but I can picture that.

Thinking about the combat theme and mechanics in general: if you had everyone roll simultaneously and then the player whose turn it was got to decide on the order, would it cause some imbalances or diminish tension? I'm guessing it would remove some in-battle decisions, such as whether or not to play Special cards.

To avoid timing issues regarding the playing of special cards, players must attack sequentially, declaring and resolving special cards as they choose along the way. When attacking Gorgutt, all players must resolve their dice roll, but still in sequential order.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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I agree that Gorgutt can be a little confusing for new or returning players.

As far as dice go, you can always buy extra D6s of a specific color if you want to make general fights slightly faster by rolling everything all at once. Many of the hobby stores I frequent sell dice loose, so you don't even need to buy those plastic cubes with 20 dice in them if you don't want to.

Besides the obvious cost concerns, I suspect the game has 3 dice of each color because that's the maximum number of minions of one type that can be present in a location, 4+ minions causes an overrun. So players will always have enough colored dice to engage in fights with minions at their location.

As far as theme goes, remember the heroes are joining in on general fight initiated by one of the heroes. Directing the order of hero combat could simply be assigning roles like a battlefield commander. For example, say the attacks were made by a Ranger, Dwarf, and a Wizard; the battle plan might be this: "The Ranger should attack Gorgutt with his bow while we close, the Dwarf will fight Gorgutt when we get close, and while the orc general is occupied, the wizard will finish Gorgutt off with his spells." That might be the stated plan, it doesn't necessary mean combat will proceed the way the commander described everyone's role for the fight. You could invent similar stories for other characters: "The Cleric will confront Gorgutt with the righteous power of her diety, allowing the Rogue to sneak behind Gorgutt and back-stab him. If that fails, the Paladin will try to cut Gorgutt down from horseback."

I hope this helps....
 
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David Knepper
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Autoduelist wrote:

Besides the obvious cost concerns, I suspect the game has 3 dice of each color because that's the maximum number of minions of one type that can be present in a location, 4+ minions causes an overrun. So players will always have enough colored dice to engage in fights with minions at their location.


Not quite. I believe there ways to get extra dice against minions: quests rewards, character abilities, etc. whistle
 
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Scott Miller
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Realistically, they could have just included 2 dice of each color. The only time the color matters is when you are attacking multiple types of minions; at such times you will never need more than 2 of any given color. But most games you end up needing more than 8 dice against a general.
 
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David Knepper
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PRSthruVOX wrote:
Realistically, they could have just included 2 dice of each color. The only time the color matters is when you are attacking multiple types of minions; at such times you will never need more than 2 of any given color. But most games you end up needing more than 8 dice against a general.


Dice rolled of a color that does not match the color of the minions attacked are automatic misses!
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Quote:
Not quite. I believe there ways to get extra dice against minions: quests rewards, character abilities, etc.


Yes that does happen when expansions iterate on the original game design, when the decision on the original number of dice to include was first made.
 
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Tony C
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Wow glad I lucked onto this thread. I've been playing wrong (using 1's only to cancel hits made by that same hero.)
It's not hard to count up 1's and hits throughout all the dice but I just need to start doing it.
And the theming of "all attacking at once" definitely makes sense.

I guess the legit way to do it would be to roll all dice of all heroes, add up hits, deduct parries from the total; because if you go hero by hero applying hits and carry over parries (or apply parries to previous hits), if heroes 1 and 2 get a ton of hits, and heroes 3 and 4 get a ton of parries, then Gorgutt is potentially into 'negative' HP before the parries are tallied, and that doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Scott Miller
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dtcarson wrote:
I guess the legit way to do it would be to roll all dice of all heroes, add up hits, deduct parries from the total;

If you roll all at once, how do you determine who landed the fatal blow and becomes the Orc Slayer?
 
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Tony C
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Process them in declared player order? Each hero keeps his hits, and parries are gathered together and cancel out hits in that declared player order (the "combat orders" mentioned above.)
 
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dtcarson wrote:
Process them in declared player order? Each hero keeps his hits, and parries are gathered together and cancel out hits in that declared player order (the "combat orders" mentioned above.)

Okay. Well I suppose that's what you're doing anyway; taking turns just requires fewer dice.

I simply don't understand why people are getting hung up on this one mechanic. We have agreed that what is happening thematically makes sense, so why does it matter the way it is run at the table? I like that people enjoy getting into the spirit of the game, but there is such a thing as overthinking it. Nothing in any board game is ever going to perfectly simulate real-life events and still be entertaining; in games like this, you have to recognize that some elements are merely parts of a whole (e.g., separate rolls on Gorgutt are to be viewed together, as a unified attack) and are not meant to be scrutinized individually.
 
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David Knepper
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Yeah, it is really tough to perfectly simulate the real-life event of a large, slow, brutish Orc with a massive, crude sword, nimbly parrying the the bow shots of effete elves and hammer blows drunken dwarves. whistle
 
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Eric Selander
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PRSthruVOX wrote:
I simply don't understand why people are getting hung up on this one mechanic. We have agreed that what is happening thematically makes sense, so why does it matter the way it is run at the table? I like that people enjoy getting into the spirit of the game, but there is such a thing as overthinking it. Nothing in any board game is ever going to perfectly simulate real-life events and still be entertaining; in games like this, you have to recognize that some elements are merely parts of a whole (e.g., separate rolls on Gorgutt are to be viewed together, as a unified attack) and are not meant to be scrutinized individually.

For me, modifying the way it is run at the table would just be a matter of efficiency. It's an interesting question to explore whether or not the process could be streamlined. If not, that's fine.
 
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