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Subject: Downforce vs. Flamme Rouge vs. Ave Caesar rss

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Wes Ray
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Three race games with similar mechanics, but are yet different: Downforce, Flamme Rouge, and Ave Caesar.

Which do you prefer and why?
 
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René Christensen
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I have only knowledge of FR and AC and must say I prefer FR.
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Tom Rose
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I am curious about people's thoughts on this, but I would like to add Royal Turf / Winner's Circle too.
 
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Jerry Wilkinson
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Slotracer wrote:
I have only knowledge of FR and AC and must say I prefer FR.


I haven't played Downforce but I have played Daytona 500 and Detroit-Cleveland Grand Prix (similar systems by the same designer), as well as Flamme Rouge. I prefer all three of these to Ave Caesar. I've played AC twice, and both times I got stuck with an unfavorable hand, and wasn't competitive based on nothing but a bad draw of the cards.

I hope for three things:

1. To play Flamme Rouge and Daytona 500/Detroit Grand Prix again
2. To play Downforce at some point in the future
3. To never play Ave Caesar again.

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W. Eric Martin
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I've played Downforce and Flamme Rouge only once each, so my feeling are preliminary, but I love Ave Caesar for the endless screwage both at choke points and in the "tribute to Caesar" lane. I also like having a small hand of cards, making the best of what I have, then seeing what comes next. Everyone has the same deck, so in theory you all have the same chances of winning, but you can play better with experience — even though this can be undone with luck.
 
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Calvin Le Huray
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I would forget them all and play Snowtails instead.whistle
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Stathis Kokkinakis
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What about Formula D?

I am looking to buy a racing game and I am leaning to Formula D at the moment!
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Calvin Le Huray
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All the other games use card movement; Formula D uses dice, which makes it quite a different game. A good game nonetheless.

Another card movement game is Jamaica, although it has a bit of a take that element.
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Stathis Kokkinakis
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eatshootsandleafs wrote:
All the other games use card movement; Formula D is uses dice, which makes it quite a different game. A good game nonetheless.

Another card movement game is Jamaica, although it has a bit of a take that element.


Thank you for the info!

I already own Jamaica! Really enjoyable game!
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Tyler DeLisle
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Stab wrote:
What about Formula D?

I am looking to buy a racing game and I am leaning to Formula D at the moment!


I FAR preferred Downforce to Formula D personally. Formula D always feels like it lasts far too long for a game that is 90% luck of the die roll, and always seems to have a lucky, runaway leader. Downforce takes a fifth of the time, is tense, and has tough decisions.

One thing both of those games have over Flamme Rouge is player count though. Main thing holding me back, capped at 4 players is kind of weak for a racing game.
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You may call me
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TyDeL wrote:

One thing both of those games have over Flamme Rouge is player count though. Main thing holding me back, capped at 4 players is kind of weak for a racing game.

The upcoming expansion takes FR up to 6.
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Tyler DeLisle
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Logus Vile wrote:
TyDeL wrote:

One thing both of those games have over Flamme Rouge is player count though. Main thing holding me back, capped at 4 players is kind of weak for a racing game.

The upcoming expansion takes FR up to 6.


Ah, thanks for the heads up. That might cinch it then. Though I wonder what that puts the play time up to. (looking for a game that can play in an hour lunch). Looks like the BGG page still says it's 30-60.
 
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Larry Snyder
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eatshootsandleafs wrote:
All the other games use card movement; Formula D is uses dice, which makes it quite a different game. A good game nonetheless.

Another card movement game is Jamaica, although it has a bit of a take that element.


What about Automobiles? They use cubes-which represent cards but aid in track/car management. Any thoughts on the comparison of the 2?
 
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Calvin Le Huray
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LarDukeSnyder wrote:
eatshootsandleafs wrote:
All the other games use card movement; Formula D is uses dice, which makes it quite a different game. A good game nonetheless.

Another card movement game is Jamaica, although it has a bit of a take that element.


What about Automobiles? They use cubes-which represent cards but aid in track/car management. Any thoughts on the comparison of the 2?


Automobiles is a great game, although it is a Bag Builder, it does have a similar feel to the other games. I prefer it to Ave Caesar and Flamme Rouge. That is not to say those games are not good, they are all excellent race games. Ave Caesar is a little more cut-throat than all the others, while Flamme Rouge is a gentle game with very little screwage.

I haven't played Downforce, so can't comment on that game.
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Anthony Bates
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Anyone have any thoughts on Downforce vs Camel Up?
I know they are very different games with completely different mechanisms but I'm mostly interested in how they compare in terms of the betting aspect. I've been meaning to pick up a copy of Camel Up for ages now but if this has a similar betting feel but is even better, I might have to grab a copy of Downforce instead.
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jonathan schleyer
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Stab wrote:
What about Formula D?

I am looking to buy a racing game and I am leaning to Formula D at the moment!


Have you looked at Rallyman? It's pretty awesome race game although very unique. I think there is a reprint coming out soon. And there is a vibrant solo community on bgg and rallyman.fr
 
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Kurt Bieberbach
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Another game that looks pretty similar is Divinity Derby from Ares games due from Kickstarter soon.

I own Snowtails but haven't managed to play it yet. I'm going to have to rectify that.
 
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Laurentiu Cristofor
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There is also Bolide, although it may be hard to find a copy now.
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David Fox
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Jrtolf wrote:
I've played AC twice, and both times I got stuck with an unfavorable hand, and wasn't competitive based on nothing but a bad draw of the cards.

I hope for three things:

1. To play Flamme Rouge and Daytona 500/Detroit Grand Prix again
2. To play Downforce at some point in the future
3. To never play Ave Caesar again.


100%

2ombie wrote:
Anyone have any thoughts on Downforce vs Camel Up?
I know they are very different games with completely different mechanisms but I'm mostly interested in how they compare in terms of the betting aspect. I've been meaning to pick up a copy of Camel Up for ages now but if this has a similar betting feel but is even better, I might have to grab a copy of Downforce instead.


Camel Up is far more about the betting side of things, Downforce is a combination of the two. You don't have a camel of your own; you do have a car you control.

In Camel Up a camel isn't out of the game if it's no more than three spaces behind other camels... it's amazing how often a back marker can come from nowhere to be a contender. In Downforce, if you're toward the back, no-one's going to bet on you and there's a good chance you won't advance through the field.

In Camel Up, you have four possible actions on your turn (leg bet, end bet, place token, move) and when you do those things is important for you and the players immediately after you; it's very hard to 'screw' someone else. In Downforce you will move cars with a card every turn, but the opportunity for 'screwage' is high - and pretty much mandated by the corners.

I like them both, own them both, and feel they're different enough to justify keeping them both.
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mfl134
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eatshootsandleafs wrote:
I would forget them all and play Snowtails instead.whistle


This is what I was going to suggest.

The games all mentioned are very different. (note I feel racing games like this are best at their max (or close to max) player counts, so all my comments are about that.)

Downforce is a gambling game with tactical decisions. You definitely need others to help you to succeed in this one in my experience. I would suspect this game end up with the most luck of all the games.

Flamme Rouge is a clever hand management game with a bit of luck in the simultaneous action selection. in the early game, you are trying to maximize the number of spaces you move relative to your played cards. (draft as much as possible and don't lose movement due to landing on blocked spaces.) In the late game, you need to determine when to shoot away from the pack to race to the finish line.

Ave Caesar is a hand management game with heavy focus on bottlenecks. You want to create as many bottlenecks as you can when you have low cards and avoid them as much as you can when you have high cards. (this is definitely the simplest of the games from a rules perspective.)

Snow Tails is also a hand management game, but it actually add an additional level of skill for moving around the track. In this game you have to deal with momentum and adjust speed and direction in order to succeed. One issue with the game is that it can have a runaway leader issue. (If somebody gets out in front and has the cards to run the ideal line, it is really hard to catch up even with the built in catch up bonuses.) The speed limits in the game prevent risk/reward opportunities. If you want to win, you probably will choose to take damage along the way.


But in summary, I would say that all of these games really fit a different niche in the racing genre.
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mfl134
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Quayde wrote:
Jrtolf wrote:
I've played AC twice, and both times I got stuck with an unfavorable hand, and wasn't competitive based on nothing but a bad draw of the cards.

I hope for three things:

1. To play Flamme Rouge and Daytona 500/Detroit Grand Prix again
2. To play Downforce at some point in the future
3. To never play Ave Caesar again.


100%

2ombie wrote:
Anyone have any thoughts on Downforce vs Camel Up?
I know they are very different games with completely different mechanisms but I'm mostly interested in how they compare in terms of the betting aspect. I've been meaning to pick up a copy of Camel Up for ages now but if this has a similar betting feel but is even better, I might have to grab a copy of Downforce instead.


Camel Up is far more about the betting side of things, Downforce is a combination of the two. You don't have a camel of your own; you do have a car you control.

In Camel Up a camel isn't out of the game if it's no more than three spaces behind other camels... it's amazing how often a back marker can come from nowhere to be a contender. In Downforce, if you're toward the back, no-one's going to bet on you and there's a good chance you won't advance through the field.

In Camel Up, you have four possible actions on your turn (leg bet, end bet, place token, move) and when you do those things is important for you and the players immediately after you; it's very hard to 'screw' someone else. In Downforce you will move cars with a card every turn, but the opportunity for 'screwage' is high - and pretty much mandated by the corners.

I like them both, own them both, and feel they're different enough to justify keeping them both.


and Camel Up Cards is somewhere between Downforce and Camel Up
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