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Subject: Is this really lighter than The Gallerist? rss

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Marc-Olivier Fiset
Canada
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Just from reading the rulebook, it seems to me that Lisboa is way heavier than The Gallerist, just from the branching decisions required only for action selection, let alone the main actions and their interactions themselves.

Is Lisboa really lighter than The Gallerist? (even if at the moment it's only a mere 0.13 points)

Is this happening because people are getting used to Vital's games and perceive them as less complex after playing a couple of his other titles?
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Gustavo Goncalves
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According to Vital, lisboa is about the same complexity as the Gallerist so it's like you say, people are getting used to Vital's games!

The same happened to The Gallerist in comparison to Kanban, but in the other way around. as Vital was more famous when The gallerist came out, than when kanban came out, more players tried it, and a huge group weren't used to such complexity. Kanban is a bit more complex than The gallerist but the rating is about the same.
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Shaun
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I've played four games of Lisboa (two on Tabletopia) now and a number of games of the Gallerist (probably 15-20). I find Lisboa even heavier than the Gallerist since the card play takes some time to get used to. There are also so many different ways to score in Lisboa, and it took me at least a couple of games to start to form strategies.

My God is it fantastic though, absolutely brilliant.
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Evan Scussel
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mastertml wrote:
I've played four games of Lisboa (two on Tabletopia) now and a number of games of the Gallerist (probably 15-20). I find Lisboa even heavier than the Gallerist since the card play takes some time to get used to. There are also so many different ways to score in Lisboa, and it took me at least a couple of games to start to form strategies.

My God is it fantastic though, absolutely brilliant.


Completely agree with this. I find the games similarly complex, but Lisboa is an amazing game. For me, easily his best design.
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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KEW GARDENS
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Probably on par weight wise once the mechanics are fully understood but definitely not lighter.

I've taught both at conventions multiple times and while they both take about the same time to teach Lisboa is a quite a bit harder for first time players to fully get their heads around.

During Lisboa there are more frequent misunderstandings well into the game, and during the teaches there are more questions and greater repetition needed to get things to sink in.
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Darrell Goodridge
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I had the initial impression that is was going to be way heavier from watching the preview videos and such. But actually playing it...It does seem to be easier than The Gallerist. At the heart of the game, you only have two choices. Each of those two choices leads to another two choices, so you have 4 basic actions you can do. Add to that there are less spinning plates to consider, and I think this is a little lighter. The people I've taught it to haven't thought so though.
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Stephen Lovell
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GusG4Real wrote:
According to Vital, lisboa is about the same complexity as the Gallerist so it's like you say, people are getting used to Vital's games!

The same happened to The Gallerist in comparison to Kanban, but in the other way around. as Vital was more famous when The gallerist came out, than when kanban came out, more players tried it, and a huge group weren't used to such complexity. Kanban is a bit more complex than The gallerist but the rating is about the same.


I think you're the first person I've heard say Kanban is more Complex than The Gallerist.
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Tahsin Shamma
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tehgr8supa wrote:
GusG4Real wrote:
According to Vital, lisboa is about the same complexity as the Gallerist so it's like you say, people are getting used to Vital's games!

The same happened to The Gallerist in comparison to Kanban, but in the other way around. as Vital was more famous when The gallerist came out, than when kanban came out, more players tried it, and a huge group weren't used to such complexity. Kanban is a bit more complex than The gallerist but the rating is about the same.


I think you're the first person I've heard say Kanban is more Complex than The Gallerist.


I agree. Kanban to me is more complex than the Gallerist.
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Richard
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tehgr8supa wrote:
GusG4Real wrote:
According to Vital, lisboa is about the same complexity as the Gallerist so it's like you say, people are getting used to Vital's games!

The same happened to The Gallerist in comparison to Kanban, but in the other way around. as Vital was more famous when The gallerist came out, than when kanban came out, more players tried it, and a huge group weren't used to such complexity. Kanban is a bit more complex than The gallerist but the rating is about the same.


I think you're the first person I've heard say Kanban is more Complex than The Gallerist.


Really? I easily The Gallerist is his lightest game -- well maybe Vinhos 2016.

Kanban and Vinhos 2010 are very tight and interconnected. I don't mean to say that Gallerist is easy but I don't feel there are as many interconnected parts as Kanban, which has many.

Lisboa is so different from his other games, I'd say it's up to the individual: if you're fine with forging your own path in a sandbox system, you shouldn't find Lisboa too daunting. The actions are pretty simple and the choices are constrained. The difficulty comes in determining a strategy and sticking to you so if you aren't good with looking at a buffet of ingredients and determining which to take to make your dish, Lisboa may be the most confounding of his games.

Because of that open nature, however, I'd say it's a little lighter than Vinhos and Kanban which are incredibly unforgiving; whether or not it clicks with each player or players find it easy is up to the strengths of those players, though.
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Russell Smith
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Id agree that Kanban's heavier too, but admittedly a large part of that is what I'd call 'teaching complexity', as opposed to how smoothly the whole fits together once it's assimilated. Kanban is the one of all Vital's which requires the most patience on the part of new players - at least in my small group. Love them both though and haven't yet tried to teach Lisboa.
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Tahsin Shamma
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One of the ways I found out how complex Lisboa is was from creating a player aid.

If you look at a turn from the perspective of a merchant in Lisboa, things start to make sense.

If you look at a turn from the perspective of a player trying to win a game, the complexities emerge. This is a good thing for people who care about theme but a horrible thing for those who don't.

For example: why does Sell Goods or Trade with the Nobles come after a Portfolio action? It only makes sense in the context of the game's story.

Take that away, and it really just makes players scratch their heads.

The same is true with gaining influence. With the importance of influence in carrying out actions, you'd think that there would be more ways to earn it. But, it's not that kind of system.

In short, Lisboa is a game that demands you come to it with an open mind about what a game is, even while it's showing you an array of mechanisms seen before in other Eurogames.
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rob cavallo
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I think it's heavier than the gallerist, but I find it much easier to play.

I also find that there's not much AP in Lisboa, where there is tons in gallerist.
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Christopher Hill
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We have also debated this subject in our group after two plays. I am in the minority as I feel Lisboa is much more complex than The Gallerist.

I don't necessarily think the game play mechanics are more complex, but where I stumble is with all the various icons. The icons in The Gallerist were mostly intuitive to me, not so with Lisboa. With games in general I have a hard enough time developing a strategy to begin with, never mind having to figure out icons along the way and how they will impact my game play. I realize everything is printed out in the player aid, but it is something like six pages and I don't really feel like reading a book when I am playing a game.

In contrast, don't get me wrong, Lisboa is an excellent game in my opinion and my inability to decipher icons (which may be very straight forward to others) should not deter people from trying this wonderful puzzle of a game.
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