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Subject: Next Expansion Theorycrafting... rss

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Steve Dara
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Just Kidding!

I thumbed through (not a great choice of words for 1 page front and back) the rules for the expansion and one thing that awfully confuses me is that it appears as though the attacker's advantage is completely gone... I don't know of any advantage to playing a tactic card before your opponent (but maybe there is). This will effect the success rate of my hit-and-run strategy...

One thing I'm concerned about is blocking cards with the 'saber' die results. Are you just supposed to remember how many you rolled after both players attack? That seems a bit clunky to me... I personally loved the existing tactic card system, but I am very excited to try this one out as well. It gives me a very 'liar's poker' type feel, which is good!
 
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Niall Smyth
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Sabers don't block damage, they heal it.
 
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Steve Dara
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poshniallo wrote:
Sabers don't block damage, they heal it.


Good point, I guess technically 'healing' hasn't really been a concept in this game before. My point still stands though, are you supposed to simply remember how many you rolled? That'll be simple for whoever attacks second (just don't move the dice) but when rolling up to 13 dice it can be a bit to track...
 
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Scott Lewis
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There shouldn't be anything to remember. When you roll sabers, you use your "combat actions" to remove damage on your ships that is already there. Blocks you'll remember because you have the card you played, and just remove the dice when the dice are rolled.
 
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Dan P
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Yeah, nothing to remember. Sabers are basically just blanks if you don't have any units that are already damaged when you roll. I'm very skeptical of this change, but willing to give it a try.
 
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Steve Dara
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sigmazero13 wrote:
There shouldn't be anything to remember. When you roll sabers, you use your "combat actions" to remove damage on your ships that is already there.


So if no damage comes from tactic cards in the first round, then 'saber' die results have no use that round? Sounds kinda... i don't know... dull? Maybe seeing damage from tactic cards will be so common that my observation won't be significant. My point is that in my games 'saber' results were always exciting... The 'Take it Down' that finished off the Star Destroyer, or the 'Brilliant Strategy' that saved my Air Speeders from a space battle.
 
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Jason Sherlock
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There was a very loud minority that wanted to dumb down combat. I guess that hey got their wish.
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Scott Lewis
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TheV0791 wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
There shouldn't be anything to remember. When you roll sabers, you use your "combat actions" to remove damage on your ships that is already there.


So if no damage comes from tactic cards in the first round, then 'saber' die results have no use that round? Sounds kinda... i don't know... dull?

For the attacker, yes. The defender would have more use for them as they may have damage from the attacker's roll.

The attacker would probably want to reroll those dice in the first round.
 
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Steve Dara
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Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely! That's why i thought blocks were after both player's rolls.
 
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Daniel K
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jackalope wrote:
There was a very loud minority that wanted to dumb down combat. I guess that hey got their wish.

How exactly is it dumbed-down? I sounds like you actually have some tactical decisions to make with choosing cards, instead of drawing random cards and hoping for the best.

TheV0791 wrote:
Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely!

When could you remove units before both players attacked? Units never got destroyed before they could attack.
 
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DanGK wrote:
jackalope wrote:
There was a very loud minority that wanted to dumb down combat. I guess that hey got their wish.

How exactly is it dumbed-down? I sounds like you actually have some tactical decisions to make with choosing cards, instead of drawing random cards and hoping for the best.

TheV0791 wrote:
Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely!

When could you remove units before both players attacked? Units never got destroyed before they could attack.


I wouldn't call this a dumb down either. (in fact I think it will be way more strategic due to the cards)
I liked the old system, and the more I look at them the more I am excited about the new tactic cards. In fact I am very excited about almost the whole* expansion, it has taken e some time to get here

*The one thing that still bugs me is the lightsabers to block, and the discrepancy between attacker rand defender.
I just feel like lightsabers could have been used a a shield for your units. I roll a lightsaber I put a shield on my x-wing, now it needs to be hit twice....

also stop calling it "heal" damage, why can't it just be "repair", that is what the astrodruids are for.
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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The new system will be a lot of rock-paper-scissors. A single combat could be peceived as dumned down ( my rock beats your scissors ) but in the long run the player who planned out his combats best will be the overal victor.

I believe there will be a great tactical aspect, but it will be obscured to most players by a veil of ' luck ', because you really had the good card there and you couldn't have known I would have taken that card! ( or could he? )

 
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jooice ZP
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Sringoot wrote:

The new system will be a lot of rock-paper-scissors. A single combat could be peceived as dumned down ( my rock beats your scissors ) but in the long run the player who planned out his combats best will be the overal victor.

I believe there will be a great tactical aspect, but it will be obscured to most players by a veil of ' luck ', because you really had the good card there and you couldn't have known I would have taken that card! ( or could he? )



The nice thing about this system is that it sounds like the rest of the game.

Are you the kind person who would put the base on endor, or just make me think you are doing that, and acctually put it on alderan.
Is vader sitting on a capture mission or a mission that has no direct affect on my leaders
If I sabotage a loyal system will he r&d it, or should I got for a subjugated system

This combat system (on paper) is more fitting with the overall missions and bluffing of the game
 
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Witold G
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TheV0791 wrote:
Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely! That's why i thought blocks were after both player's rolls.

I think you meant to say something along the lines of:

"They removed the 'place casualties on the faction sheet (to be destroyed at the end of this combat step)' sub-phase completely."
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Steve Dara
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DanGK wrote:
TheV0791 wrote:
Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely!

When could you remove units before both players attacked? Units never got destroyed before they could attack.


In the rules for the vanilla game it states...

'Each unit that has damage assigned to it equal to or exceeding its health is placed on the player’s faction sheet
and is destroyed at the end of this combat step (either space
battle or ground battle). Units on a player’s faction sheet still
attack (roll dice) this combat round.'


Which is a fancy way of saying that units are removed after each player's attack (though removed units still contribute their dice in that combat round)... If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, why do the new rules for 'cinematic combat' state the following.

'When using cinematic combat rules, skip the “Destroy Units” step of
attacks.'
 
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Steve Dara
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jooice wrote:
Sringoot wrote:
The new system will be a lot of rock-paper-scissors. A single combat could be perceived as dumned down (my rock beats your scissors) but in the long run the player who planned out his combats best will be the overall victor.
This combat system (on paper) is more fitting with the overall missions and bluffing of the game


This brings something up though. There are 16 cards in each faction deck and they aren't reshuffled until they get depleted... So as time goes on the guessing is slowly removed until you know the person's last card, then it resets. Do any of you think the combat 'bluffing' aspect might be a little cyclical, especially when you consider a few of the cards are designed for semi-specific scenarios.
 
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Yan Bertrand
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TheV0791 wrote:
DanGK wrote:
TheV0791 wrote:
Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely!

When could you remove units before both players attacked? Units never got destroyed before they could attack.


In the rules for the vanilla game it states...

'Each unit that has damage assigned to it equal to or exceeding its health is placed on the player’s faction sheet
and is destroyed at the end of this combat step (either space
battle or ground battle). Units on a player’s faction sheet still
attack (roll dice) this combat round.'


Which is a fancy way of saying that units are removed after each player's attack (though removed units still contribute their dice in that combat round)... If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, why do the new rules for 'cinematic combat' state the following.

'When using cinematic combat rules, skip the “Destroy Units” step of
attacks.'


I guess I'll chime in to ask with a specific example.
With the old rules, if Imperial the attacker assigned 2 damage to a Rebel airspeeder, and the Rebel didn't have any tactics card to block part of that damage, then damagetokens would be placed under it at the end of the Empire's attack, then the airspeeder would fire back during the Rebel phase, then it would be destroyed.

With the "cinematic" rules, I assume we still place damage tokens as earlier, but then during the Rebel's attack, if lightsabers are rolled, then existing damage tokens can be cancelled.

Is that correct?

If yes then indeed I have to agree with others that the attacker is at a huge disadvantage during the first turn, because any lightsabers rolled during the attacker's first combat round are wasted = useless = same as blanks (since there are no damaged units to use them on). What's more, the defender gets a chance to repair units (with astromechs, yep, yep, that's cinematic for X-Wings only ) but the attacker will never get such a chance, and will see units destroyed rather than simply damaged (if the defender assigns damage accordingly).

Would people who have the rulebook tell us how it goes?
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Herman92 wrote:
TheV0791 wrote:
DanGK wrote:
TheV0791 wrote:
Well now nothing is removed from play until after both players attack... They removed the 'remove casualties' sub-phase completely!

When could you remove units before both players attacked? Units never got destroyed before they could attack.


In the rules for the vanilla game it states...

'Each unit that has damage assigned to it equal to or exceeding its health is placed on the player’s faction sheet
and is destroyed at the end of this combat step (either space
battle or ground battle). Units on a player’s faction sheet still
attack (roll dice) this combat round.'


Which is a fancy way of saying that units are removed after each player's attack (though removed units still contribute their dice in that combat round)... If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, why do the new rules for 'cinematic combat' state the following.

'When using cinematic combat rules, skip the “Destroy Units” step of
attacks.'


I guess I'll chime in to ask with a specific example.
With the old rules, if Imperial the attacker assigned 2 damage to a Rebel airspeeder, and the Rebel didn't have any tactics card to block part of that damage, then damagetokens would be placed under it at the end of the Empire's attack, then the airspeeder would fire back during the Rebel phase, then it would be destroyed.

With the "cinematic" rules, I assume we still place damage tokens as earlier, but then during the Rebel's attack, if lightsabers are rolled, then existing damage tokens can be cancelled.

Is that correct?

If yes then indeed I have to agree with others that the attacker is at a huge disadvantage during the first turn, because any lightsabers rolled during the attacker's first combat round are wasted = useless = same as blanks (since there are no damaged units to use them on). What's more, the defender gets a chance to repair units (with astromechs, yep, yep, that's cinematic for X-Wings only ) but the attacker will never get such a chance, and will see units destroyed rather than simply damaged (if the defender assigns damage accordingly).

Would people who have the rulebook tell us how it goes?


What you said is what the rulebook said.

You can read it on the ffg website btw.
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Niall Smyth
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TheV0791 wrote:
jooice wrote:
Sringoot wrote:
The new system will be a lot of rock-paper-scissors. A single combat could be perceived as dumned down (my rock beats your scissors) but in the long run the player who planned out his combats best will be the overall victor.
This combat system (on paper) is more fitting with the overall missions and bluffing of the game


This brings something up though. There are 16 cards in each faction deck and they aren't reshuffled until they get depleted... So as time goes on the guessing is slowly removed until you know the person's last card, then it resets. Do any of you think the combat 'bluffing' aspect might be a little cyclical, especially when you consider a few of the cards are designed for semi-specific scenarios.


I'm pretty sure there are 8 ground and 8 space cards. Not 16 that are used all together.
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Steve Dara
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So lets say an average battle lasts 3 rounds... There's gonna be a rotation of lots of bluffing, little bluffing and mostly obvious, lots of bluffing, little bluffing and mostly obvious and on and on. Right? To a point obviously...
 
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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TheV0791 wrote:
So lets say an average battle lasts 3 rounds... There's gonna be a rotation of lots of bluffing, little bluffing and mostly obvious, lots of bluffing, little bluffing and mostly obvious and on and on. Right? To a point obviously...


How do you mean bluffing? Will some cards be somewhat rock/paper/scissors? Or do you lure your opponent into taking their best card ( looking at the general situation on the board, empire having a lot of ATAT's would make tow attack the rebel's most valuable card ) and then retreat yourself so their card is gone before you can attack again next round?

 
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Yan P.
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Sringoot wrote:
TheV0791 wrote:
So lets say an average battle lasts 3 rounds... There's gonna be a rotation of lots of bluffing, little bluffing and mostly obvious, lots of bluffing, little bluffing and mostly obvious and on and on. Right? To a point obviously...


How do you mean bluffing? Will some cards be somewhat rock/paper/scissors? Or do you lure your opponent into taking their best card ( looking at the general situation on the board, empire having a lot of ATAT's would make tow attack the rebel's most valuable card ) and then retreat yourself so their card is gone before you can attack again next round?



That, or judicious guessing of when your opponent is going to drop their awesome card so that you use your "cancel your opponent's tactics' card" in that round.

Suppose, for instance, that I attack an AT-AT with an airspeeder and a trooper. You know my only realistic chance of winning is using "tow cables", so you want to use a card that cancels my tactics card. But I know that you know that, so instead I play any stupid card, and hope to survive the roll (with a 3 tactics leader I have 6 shots at getting lightsabers, which means my average will be 6 *1/3 = 2 lightsabers. Barring extremes, I ought to survive a round).
 
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Witold G
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Xatham wrote:
Suppose, for instance, that I attack an AT-AT with an airspeeder and a trooper. You know my only realistic chance of winning is using "tow cables", so you want to use a card that cancels my tactics card. But I know that you know that, so instead I play any stupid card, and hope to survive the roll (with a 3 tactics leader I have 6 shots at getting lightsabers, which means my average will be 6 *1/3 = 2 lightsabers. Barring extremes, I ought to survive a round).

You mean the chances of AT-AT surviving after getting hit with uncancelled Tow Cables in this situation? For starters, it only has 2 dice which can remove red damage, so 2 removals are the absolute best it can do and absolute minimum for survival at the same time - chance to get it is ~9.34%.

Unless you meant something else entirely - either way, mind games are going to be very fun in new combat...
 
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Patrick Reynolds
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Yes, the defender gets a slight advantage in that they'll have an opportunity to remove damage in the first turns of combat while the attacker does not.

However, this feels very thematic - consider that generally the attacker is going into battle with his own advantages; usually superior forces or the knowledge that he has an Objective or action card that will greatly benefit him. The defender has the "home team" advantage - they're dug in, they have guards posted, etc. So those first rounds of combat represent the defender's ability to fall back for healing or bring mechanics up to repair vehicles, while the attackers are on unfamiliar territory and need to basically eat first encounter casualties and push forward.

Having played a game with the new combat rules I will say that I like it MUCH better than the old rules, with the generic shared tactics decks that basically boiled down to "block damage" or "deal damage." It also flows much better. The new Tactics decks mean that you make one meaningful decision before each combat turn that might really make a huge difference, and there are enough options that timing and bluffing matters, especially once you know what all of the units are capable of. For example, taking an AT-AT into battle against air speeders is potentially a huge risk, since the air speeder tactic card puts more damage than needed to kill it onto an AT-AT before the battle starts. But, if you have an Interdictor in the battle you can cancel that card... if you can correctly guess when your opponent will play it. This can lead to a lot of "will he or won't he play that card" moments.

It's good stuff. My old tactics decks are in the garbage.
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pkreynolds wrote:
Yes, the defender gets a slight advantage in that they'll have an opportunity to remove damage in the first turns of combat while the attacker does not.

However, this feels very thematic - consider that generally the attacker is going into battle with his own advantages; usually superior forces or the knowledge that he has an Objective or action card that will greatly benefit him. The defender has the "home team" advantage - they're dug in, they have guards posted, etc. So those first rounds of combat represent the defender's ability to fall back for healing or bring mechanics up to repair vehicles, while the attackers are on unfamiliar territory and need to basically eat first encounter casualties and push forward.

Having played a game with the new combat rules I will say that I like it MUCH better than the old rules, with the generic shared tactics decks that basically boiled down to "block damage" or "deal damage." It also flows much better. The new Tactics decks mean that you make one meaningful decision before each combat turn that might really make a huge difference, and there are enough options that timing and bluffing matters, especially once you know what all of the units are capable of. For example, taking an AT-AT into battle against air speeders is potentially a huge risk, since the air speeder tactic card puts more damage than needed to kill it onto an AT-AT before the battle starts. But, if you have an Interdictor in the battle you can cancel that card... if you can correctly guess when your opponent will play it. This can lead to a lot of "will he or won't he play that card" moments.

It's good stuff. My old tactics decks are in the garbage.



You meant interceptor cancelling cards for the ground battles. (interdictor is in space)

good point about the theme.
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