Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

878: Vikings – Invasions of England» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fyrd cards reshuffle? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Are the played Fyrd cards removed from the game or placed on a discard pile to be reshuffeld what the draw pile runs out?

Can't find it in the rules, but in the video from "watch's it played" Rodney mentions the fyrd cards are removed from the game once played. If that's so, then only 16 battles can have Fyrd units... surprise
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
antoi wrote:
Are the played Fyrd cards removed from the game or placed on a discard pile to be reshuffeld what the draw pile runs out?

If that's so, then only 16 battles can have Fyrd units... surprise


You are correct! You may opt not to use a Fyrd card if you would prefer to save it for later.

Wasn't Rodney's video incredible? Watch it Played does a very professional job with everything they do.

Make your battles count

Aiden
Academy Games
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill H
United States
Rensselaer
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Come on Batman! Pull your weight!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for responding to this. I didn't see it in the rules either.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
uweeickert wrote:
antoi wrote:
Are the played Fyrd cards removed from the game or placed on a discard pile to be reshuffeld what the draw pile runs out?

If that's so, then only 16 battles can have Fyrd units... surprise


You are correct! You may opt not to use a Fyrd card if you would prefer to save it for later.

Wasn't Rodney's video incredible? Watch it Played does a very professional job with everything they do.

Make your battles count

Aiden
Academy Games



Yes, the video is great (the videos from David and Dan where also great)
So this one is for the FAQ? Or is it in the rules?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Anton,

The rules never tell you to shuffle the Fyrd deck, so it is not shuffled. We always try to specify when a deck is reshuffled when empty, and in the Birth of America/Europe games, decks are generally not reshuffled.

However, it could certainly have some more attention drawn to it, you are correct. I will make a note to clarify this in the next edition of the rules.

Thanks,

Aiden
Academy Games
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, that would be great. Especially since in the epic battle expansion there is a fyrd discard pile that you reshuffle if you run out of cards. If I wasn't aware of the things above I would have followed those expansion rules and reshuffle every game (so even without playing the expansion)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It also influence the first expansion a lot as the burned church gives you a extra fyrd card, but you also run out very quickly
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Townshend
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uweeickert wrote:
The rules never tell you to shuffle the Fyrd deck, so it is not shuffled.


Aiden, can you please double and triple check this with Uwe, Gunter, and the designer?

We just finished a game. Using the "don't reshuffle Fyrd" call from these forums, the English avoided using Fyrd cards in a few battles early on. Even so, the Vikings battled several times per turn, swallowing up English cities, and the English ran out of Fyrd cards after round 4 (of 6). The Vikings had been winning, but with no more Fyrd cards in the deck, the rest of the game was a slaughter, as the Vikings bulldozed the English over the course of the next two rounds.

The Fyrd are never good; they only have 2 hit results on their dice, so they mostly just die or flee, but they provide a little balancing element to the English (cannon fodder with occasional hits), whose huscarls hit 50% of the time; the thegns fled more often than not.

For both sides, the excitement of the game diminished when the fyrd went away because there was little the English could hope to do by taking back a shire. Taking back any shire was costly enough that the English would only survive the battle by a couple of units. The next round the Vikings would enter with a superior army, no fyrd would be drawn, and the thegns would mostly flee. Also, the depletion of the fyrd deck meant that event cards like Rebellion and Alfred's Gambit could not be played by the huscarl player; the Viking players, already powerful, did not have event cards that relied on limited game resources, which they could never play.

Something seems amiss with this ruling; I understand that FACTION decks are not reshuffled in the "Birth of" games, but the lack of the fyrd (a game element that is not a faction and has nothing in common with faction decks and whose numbers could almost as easily be determined by a d6) seemed to mess with game balance and interaction with other cards that triggered the fyrd and caused weird situations overall. When you consider that the Land & Gods expansion also burns through fyrd cards, and that the Epic Battles expansion reshuffles them, making them a limited resource in the base game seems very strange. I believe it also requires the English players to be more skilled than the Viking players since the numbers will not be in their favor.

The rules to the base game seem to imply that the English draw a fyrd card as a matter of course, without concern for a deck. Since limited fyrd have such a significant impact on the game, I'm surprised that the base rules don't mention this at all, whereas the expansion says... well, all sorts of things about what to do with fyrd.

I'd love to hear a second or third opinion from Academy Games with an explanation as to how the fyrd deck unbalances play in favor of the English when reshuffled. Had we reshuffled the fyrd, the Vikings would likely still have won, but it would have been closer, a little more exciting, and the English may have been able to withstand more of the invasions in rounds 5 and 6. It also doesn't seem to make thematic sense that the fyrd stop defending their cities, and give up right around when Alfred enters the scene. I don't meant to question your judgment--it's just that this ruling very much impacted play (and enjoyment!) for us. Can you look into it in case there is a mistake? Thanks!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Totally agree. Although I haven't played a single game.
I think thats why I will put the epic battle expension in as the first addition to the base game. Although I don't like some of the epic battle card

It also has impact on expansion 1,4 and 5 since additional fyrd cards are involved. In expansion 4 even for the vikings.....

And what to do if you run out of fyrd cards in expansion 1 but still have some burned churches card left to spent?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Townshend
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
antoi wrote:
It also has impact on expansion 1,4 and 5 since additional fyrd cards are involved. In expansion 4 even for the vikings.....

And what to do if you run out of fyrd cards in expansion 1 but still have some burned churches card left to spent?


If you're the English, you lose. The Fyrd are the random balancing element that gives the English a (very random) chance to withstand the Vikings by sacrificing the ones that don't flee (and if you're lucky you'll score a hit with them a few times over the course of the game). Taking them away removes any semblance of balance for the English.

The Fyrd are terrible troops, but they give the English player some hope of slowing the Vikings down and holding onto a city site. Remove the Fyrd and in any future round where the Vikings get a new leader, the English have lost. The C cards allow the Vikings to hit any coast. It's pretty easy for the Vikings to roll through and take what they need.

The Vikings do not get worse during the game, but if the English lose their balancing element, they do get worse at defending. So either the clarification from Watch It Played is incorrect or the game is broken/not fun for whoever draws the short straw and has to play the English.

Because NOT using Fyrd cards to defend cities in the early game will allow the Viking leaders to take cities very quickly, and in the late game Fyrd aren't going to save the English if the Vikings already hold a significant number of cities (because the English player didn't use the Fyrd in the early game to slow them down). Saving your Fyrd for the late game, the Fyrd will still mostly run away, sometimes die or score an occasional hit, and that's too little too late if the Viking players have their Treaty cards.

And again--all that stuff about a limited Fyrd resource not being in the rules as written, about the Fyrd being referred to as "cards" and not a "deck" in the rules, about them not being a faction, the event cards that require them, and all the expansion material that relies upon them.

It's important to me because I'd like to teach this game to people who'd like to play the English and I'd like for them to have a good time. So if the rules as written get altered due to an incorrect clarification and it breaks the game, then it becomes a game I can't play with others except by house rules, and at that point... well, we could just play 1775 instead. On the other hand, if the clarification is correct, we need a lot of information as to how the game is balanced, what the expansions are supposed to do with the Fyrd when they can run out, what to do with event cards that rely upon the Fyrd, which cannot be played and fill the huscarl player's hand (what's the balancing element for that?), when the Fyrd are optimally played, if not to defend all English-held cities, and how the English player can keep up with a Viking player whose leaders take city after city because the English player is afraid to use their Fyrd cards... The way I'm seeing it, either the clarification is mistaken, in which the simple fix is, "change nothing," or if the clarification is correct, much more clarification, adjustment, and rules modifications are needed, especially with the expansion. Or everyone plays with house rules. Or plays 1775 instead. ;-)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

But..... I still need to play this game
Also keep in mind that:
- The english start with more units on the bord
- The English start with 19 reinforcements a turn
- The 16 Fyrd cards have a total of 56 units with an average of 3,5 a card
- The Event cards can really help sometime. For both sides of course, but the Thegn have a card that in all battles that turn the flee counts as hit. The housecarl have a card where they can muster 3 extra units during reinforcements phase..

So im still wondering if no reshuffling is a good thing, but the English do have something to fight back with.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josiah Leis
United States
Merino
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
I spent 100 GG and all I got was this stupid overtext.....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok, the more I read of the expansion rules the more confident I am becoming that the Fyrd deck has got to be reshuffled. Most of the expansions add new ways to draw from the Fyrd deck and it already runs out during the base game with little to no extra draws from it. Heck, the "Arm Ring of Thor" Viking Relic allows the Vikings to draw Fyrd cards and add them battle. This would seriously cripple the English ability to defend if the Vikings are able to burn through the Fyrd deck for them (and there is no mention of it being reshuffled in the "Relics and Holy Sites" rules).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Townshend
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Indeed. Drawing Fyrd is something that I believe would have been evident to anyone who HADN'T seen the Watch It Played video or visited this thread, and is likely how everyone else is playing the game. The Fyrd card clarification in the rules (p. 11) says:

FYRD CARDS
When a Viking Army attacks a City Shire defended by at least 1 Housecarl or 1 Thegn, the English players draw one Fyrd card and add the listed Fyrd to the Shire. All Fyrd are removed at the end of a battle.


Pretty straightforward. You draw a Fyrd when you're English and defending a city shire that gets attacked by Vikings. If the English work their way through the stack they'll still need to draw another card the next time the Vikings attack their cities, so of course they reshuffle. The expansion takes it for granted that this is understood.

And again... if Fyrd cards are intended as a limited resource then the game begins to fracture along a multitude of lines:
- multiple parts of the expansion don't work
- certain event cards in the base game may not work
- balance of the base game is upset
- Vikings gain a strong strategic advantage, English gain nothing

Multiple clarifications are then needed. Whereas reshuffling, as I'd argue is evident in the base game and expansion, means no changes to anything and the game plays the way those that did not watch that particular video (or came to this thread) are playing it, since drawing Fyrd when Vikings attack English-held cities is what the rules say to do.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Fyrd Deck is reshuffled when it is exhausted.

Gunter
Academy Games
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fiomtec
Spain
Madrid
flag msg tools
badge
Watcha looking at?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uweeickert wrote:
The Fyrd Deck is reshuffled when it is exhausted.

Gunter
Academy Games


Could someone please edit the first post?. I know of two people minimum that have read this thread and played with the wrong rule because they stopped reading after the first official response.

(now that we FINALLY have received it in Spain, that is)

Thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.