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Subject: Arnie's message to Trump re: Nazis rss

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col_w
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An excellent video from The Terminator.



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Wendell
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It was good. More effective even when he alluded to Austrians' experience as Nazis, living their lives in shame and now they are in hell (paraphrasing Schwarzenegger).
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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This is what I have been trying to get across to people who keep trying to equate the "alt-left" with the alt-right. The neonazis and neconfederates and the many who associate as both have picked two of the U.S.'s worst adversaries and are using them as their heroes and their philosophy. Even if you don't care about slavery, even if you don't care about the holocaust (and I am trying to avoid opening that pandora's box of what that really says about someone who doesn't care)), here are two groups that have killed more U.S. soldiers than any other in history. By far, the biggest killers of Americans have been fascists and confederates. Even the most xenophobic, ultra-patriot has to realize that most of the Americans killed on the battlefield were by these groups and they are flying their flags, wearing their colors and chanting their slogans? Jesus, people are still today equated with evil for even thinking communism might have some positives, yet these two groups get passes? I mean really, even if you are a virulent racist who just wants you and your kin to be in America, you have to see that these other groups are against the United States, not in sync with its "freedom fighters".
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Walt
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No "alt-left" exists. It's a Trumpian delusion. He's making **** up. As usual.
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J.D. Hall
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Good for the Governator. But man, I freaked out with the headline. I'm old, so Arnie means Arnold Palmer -- who's been dead for a couple of years. Was thinking, "whoa even the dead are rising to spank Mistah Trump!"
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Tall_Walt wrote:
No "alt-left" exists. It's a Trumpian delusion. He's making **** up. As usual.


First all of the necessary caveats:

1) Nazis and Neoconfederates are scum
2) No attempt is being made to to equate the Alt-left with Nazis and Neoconfederates


That being stated - Trump is not wrong on this, the alt-left does exist and is discussed (ironically mostly by liberals). Here is a sample

- James Walcott wrote a piece in Vanity Fair on the alt-left in March - ""The alt-left can't match [the alt-right] for strength, malignancy, or tentacled reach, but its dude-bros and ‘purity progressives' exert a powerful reality-distortion field online and foster factionalism on the lib-left"

Nareen Tandem of the Center for American Progress tweeted about them in February ""I remember last summer when I pointed out Russia's role in leaking/the elections and the alt-left attacked me for McCarthyism"

Joan Walsh tweeted in march "Well, Hillary Clinton made it a brighter place, but that wasn't valued. Even on much of the American left, especially the alt-left"

The issue of course is what exactly IS the Alt-Left, and one can argue that each of these liberal writers were talking about different groups. But to claim that the alt-left does not exist and is not talked about is well....... very Trumpian.
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Trey Chambers
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Arnie is the only sane Republican far as I can see.

I kind of wish it was West Coast and Northern moderate Republicans vs. Southern Populist Democrats. Then we'd have two somewhat good but somewhat flawed parties, instead of right now where we have a terrible, insane party that's really good at no-holds-barred politics, and a party with good guiding values it drops when convenient and that also sucks hard at politics.
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I had not seen the Arnold Schwarzenegger video before this. He states what Trumps position should be very well. One might even call it presidential.

The only thing that surprised me was that no network news (that I've seen) had broadcast it ... yet.
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Utrecht wrote:
That being stated - Trump is not wrong on this, the alt-left does exist and is discussed (ironically mostly by liberals).
Here's the thing: The term "alt-right" was coined by the alt-right themselves as a self-identifier. It was a term created by the actual adherents to differentiate their message.

The term "alt-left" began as the typical Fox News slur designed to tie some sort of moral equivalency between bigots and people that Fox News didn't like. It's the equivalent of using the word "liberals" when the only meaning becomes "not conservative."

Here's a good Snopes article that basically credits Sean Hannity for popularizing "alt left" last Fall during a debate:

http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/17/is-the-alt-left-a-real-thin...
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Chad
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Utrecht wrote:
That being stated - Trump is not wrong on this, the alt-left does exist and is discussed (ironically mostly by liberals).
Here's the thing: The term "alt-right" was coined by the alt-right themselves as a self-identifier. It was a term created by the actual adherents to differentiate their message.

The term "alt-left" began as the typical Fox News slur designed to tie some sort of moral equivalency between bigots and people that Fox News didn't like. It's the equivalent of using the word "liberals" when the only meaning becomes "not conservative."

Here's a good Snopes article that basically credits Sean Hannity for popularizing "alt left" last Fall during a debate:

http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/17/is-the-alt-left-a-real-thin...


Thats great - but it also does not mean it does not exist.

Tall Walt stated it was a figment of Trump's imagination. I gave cites (from liberals) proving otherwise. I will not engage in any sort of equivalency discussions - simply providing facts.
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The concept of the "alt-left" is a form of "whataboutism" that the right and other groups (such as MRAs) tend to like to use.

"We should do something about all these women getting raped"

"whatabout men who get raped."


"We should do something about racism"

"whatabout rappers who say the n-word"


"The Alt-Right has taken over the republican party and the country, and this is a problem because they're racist lunatics."

"Whatabout the alt left they broke the window of a starbucks"


It's a way of not ever having a conversation about an issue you don't want to talk about by accusing the other side of bias and/or partisanship and reducing every conversation to "my side good your side bad."


Trump actually does this too sometimes to a hilarious and insane degree, like where someone was saying Putin was a dictator and his "whatabout" was literally to compare Putin to the nation that he is the president of.
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fightcitymayor
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Utrecht wrote:
Thats great - but it also does not mean it does not exist.

Tall Walt stated it was a figment of Trump's imagination. I gave cites (from liberals) proving otherwise. I will not engage in any sort of equivalency discussions - simply providing facts.
Plenty of dubious terms "exist" that were invented because of a rhetorical need to insult, degrade, and marginalize anyone deemed an undesirable opponent. Pro-lifers call anyone not on their side "pro-death" but that doesn't necessarily make it so. (I've never met anyone happily rooting for abortions.)

I just wouldn't put too much stock in a term that a few lazy journalists used because they heard Sean Hannity use it as a lame attempt at moral equivalence.
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Khalid Shabazz
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Utrecht wrote:
I gave cites (from liberals) proving otherwise.

That still doesn't mean the alt-left identifies as such. It's similar to SJW. Some ironically describe themselves as SJW now, but it started out as a slur.

I know who those liberals, as you call them, are referring to with "alt-left". It's people on the left who denounce the Democratic party and Hillary Clinton as pro-corporate, pro-Wall Street, status quo, as only pandering to the left for votes. They supported Bernie Sanders. They are notably critical of reporting on collusion with Russia as fear-mongering, a distraction and an excuse for the election loss. They also criticize Israel.

But the point is these people don't think of themselves as the alt-left. They usually call themselves progressives, the progressive left, or just the left. Primarily because they don't consider the Democratic party to be left-wing or progressive.
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Walt
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Utrecht wrote:
Tall Walt stated it was a figment of Trump's imagination. I gave cites (from liberals) proving otherwise. I will not engage in any sort of equivalency discussions - simply providing facts.

I have found no evidence of any group calling itself "alt left".

And you seem to be confused about what a citation is. A citation is not a quote but a reference to a source, hopefully authoritative.

"The term "alt-Left", coined by Mr Trump, is not widely used." [this is a quote]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/15/alt-left-donald-t... [this is a citation]

"There are no groups that use ‘alt-left’ to describe themselves." [quote]
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017... [cite]
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Fukin A, way to go Arni!

That's the republican party I remember being part of. before they were pro-russian.
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Utrecht wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
No "alt-left" exists. It's a Trumpian delusion. He's making **** up. As usual.


First all of the necessary caveats:

1) Nazis and Neoconfederates are scum
2) No attempt is being made to to equate the Alt-left with Nazis and Neoconfederates


That being stated - Trump is not wrong on this, the alt-left does exist and is discussed (ironically mostly by liberals). Here is a sample

- James Walcott wrote a piece in Vanity Fair on the alt-left in March - ""The alt-left can't match [the alt-right] for strength, malignancy, or tentacled reach, but its dude-bros and ‘purity progressives' exert a powerful reality-distortion field online and foster factionalism on the lib-left"

Nareen Tandem of the Center for American Progress tweeted about them in February ""I remember last summer when I pointed out Russia's role in leaking/the elections and the alt-left attacked me for McCarthyism"

Joan Walsh tweeted in march "Well, Hillary Clinton made it a brighter place, but that wasn't valued. Even on much of the American left, especially the alt-left"

The issue of course is what exactly IS the Alt-Left, and one can argue that each of these liberal writers were talking about different groups. But to claim that the alt-left does not exist and is not talked about is well....... very Trumpian.


Finding a few people who decide to use a term neither gives legitimate definition to that term nor properly identifies a group to which it is applied. In this instance it seems to be a catch all for the extreme left wing (which is a label we already use).

The use of Alt-Left by Trump is a calculated attempt to conflate those on the extreme left (or more broadly the left in general) with the Alt-Right and thereby to suggest some sort of co-equal movement. This is an apologists gimmick to have you look past the openly racist agenda of those who push for a white nationalist resurgence symbolized both by nazi sigils and those of the Confederacy.

It's not a question of Trump being wrong so much as one of Trump being manipulative and deceitful. Clear, articulate leadership is what is called for here and Arnold is showing us what that should look like.
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There is already a term for if your 'alt left' - it's called republicanism.
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