Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
I'm a dedicated print & play board gamer and I have a lot of tools for such stuff. I heard already so much about Pandemic Legacy and the whole thing about destroying and permanently altering game components, that now it sounds more fun for me to "accept the challenge" and play this game without altering anything forever and then post guide on BGG how to do it easily and efficiently.

Personally I think that all those big words about "tension" and how it "changes your thinking about the game" is partially a lie, partially a misconception. It makes absolutely no sense to break any game components and it doesn't affect the gameplay experience in positive way even a bit. The whole "legacy" concept is just a story mode done wrong. Nothing new, nothing drastically inventive. RPGs have done it years ago - it's pretty much the same as running a RPG campaign, but with one-of-a-kind character sheets, tiles and map that you paid heavy money for, instead of copying them on copy machine, like every civilized man. That's why we copy them - so we can play as many times as we want. And we want to play games many times. "But it's one of a kind experience!". Yeah, guess what... your first time with any game will always be one of a kind experience. It will never happen again, because it was, well, first. It's the same with legacy games - nothing special and destroying your game doesn't change it even a bit. You just make your game unusable again, your experience would be "one and only" anyway, even if you didn't destroy anything.

So, right now I'm quite busy, but next month I'm buying this thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Susan
United States
Mesa
Arizona
flag msg tools
www.Meetup.com/ArizonaGames
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you haven't played it, you can't really know what we mean when we say destroying the components has a long term effect on the game play.

Yes you can certainly not destroy anything in the game so you reset it but don't discount the effect permanently changing the game space has on the experience.

I liken it to the difference between watching a show and being part of one.

The game didn't get to number 1 just by being just okay. It's outstanding and part of that is the very real, "we can't turn back from this" and type of decisions that the game forces you to make throughout.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clive Jones

Cambridgeshire, UK
msg tools
mb
The legacy mechanism does positively affect gameplay, and if you don't play it properly you'll be missing out on a significant part of the experience.

Besides, you can't play the game without altering anything. There are things you have to peel back, scratch off, tear open, etc. in order to obtain information you need in order to continue playing.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Farydia Pseudo
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why make such a big fuss about it? Personally, I did not tear apart any cards, but just tucked them away beneath the insert. Stickers and stuff we apply of course (and I imagine you can't get them off again, because the glue would tear the cardboard). So, yeah, you can play without actually physically destroying cards, no problem. And it's still the same awesome experience, because the cards are still gone for the game.
So, there's my guide devil.

I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that the legacy thing is not for you, but I find it a bit presumptuous to state that people who enjoy it just suffer from some kind of delusion, because in reality they shouldn't enjoy it. Especially without having played yourself. I'd recommend you just play one of the thousands of other great games that you do enjoy...
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron Olivier, Sr.
United States
North Smithfield
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I imagine you could jump through hoops to make it reusable. There's no real need to destroy the cards, and you could cover the board (and some other components)with clear plastic, writing on that rather than using the stickers. I'm sure it's possible.

That being said, the element of surprise would still be completely ruined. Part of what I like about this game (as we head into May in our campaign) is that when we began, we had absolutely no idea what twists and turns would come about. We still have no idea what awaits us during our next session, or all the sessions after that. If I were to start a new game and begin in January, there are a lot of things I would probably do differently because I know what awaits.

For me, the permanent changes to the components are simply a necessary part of the experience.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
Farydia wrote:
but I find it a bit presumptuous to state that people who enjoy it just suffer from some kind of delusion, because in reality they shouldn't enjoy it.

You understood me wrong. I'm saying that the story is probably awesome (and that's what people enjoy), but the legacy aspect is just tacked on and not enjoyable a bit, so people subconsciously justify destroying/altering game components, because otherwise it would seem like they don't like the story. Therefore they "tricked" themselves into thinking that they like legacy. I'm pretty sure people would enjoy Pandemic Legacy exactly as much (if not more) if it was reusable.

rantinronrevue wrote:
If I were to start a new game and begin in January, there are a lot of things I would probably do differently because I know what awaits.

That sounds like a bad game design, but I have yet to see by myself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Hostetler
United States
Warminster
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You had me until you started bashing the Legacy system and the people who like it. It's fine if it's not for you, but it DOES add to the game for many people.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
slydog75 wrote:
You had me until you started bashing the Legacy system and the people who like it.

Can't we just peacefully disagree? I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings about the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon C
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Possibility 1: thousands of players have played the game, discussed it, thought about it and come to the conclusion that they like it for what it is.

Possibility 2: you, personally, who have not played the game, have the correct interpretation of what those thousands of players thought they liked, while they're wrong about it.

Hmmmm.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yatsura Urusai
Germany
flag msg tools
mb
Popularity is never the best thing to measure with.
Many board games are really good, but are still unknown.
Other board games are terrible, but got hyped in media and pushed into mainstream anyway.

If tearing things apart "adds to the experience", it really is just an illusion to the mind. A strong one. Otherwise you would happily destroy your board game collection & tell people about your self-made legacy-experience. Oh wait, you didnt? I wonder why...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Connell
United States
Newark
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll tell you what, play any of the game at all then get back to us. You'll see how it works then.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Farydia Pseudo
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ned_poreyra wrote:
Farydia wrote:
but I find it a bit presumptuous to state that people who enjoy it just suffer from some kind of delusion, because in reality they shouldn't enjoy it.

You understood me wrong. I'm saying that the story is probably awesome (and that's what people enjoy), but the legacy aspect is just tacked on and not enjoyable a bit, so people subconsciously justify destroying/altering game components, because otherwise it would seem like they don't like the story. Therefore they "tricked" themselves into thinking that they like legacy. I'm pretty sure people would enjoy Pandemic Legacy exactly as much (if not more) if it was reusable.


No, it's not that awesome a story (at least not for me). There are games that tell a much better story. Here it's mostly just a framework for your experience and during the gameplay as such it's barely present to be honest. It is in fact the changing of the game elements, that let's you write your story. And it's the slow addition of each gameplay element that is added to the game when opening envelopes and boxes that add to your experience. And that's the big difference between a legacy game and any other storytelling game: to know that your game is (kind of) unique and different from any other PL that's played out there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig B
Australia
Mount Hawthorn
Western Australia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You should play the game first. Then get back to us.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anthony Davies
United States
Newberg
Or
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ned_poreyra wrote:
You understood me wrong. I'm saying that the story is probably awesome (and that's what people enjoy), but the legacy aspect is just tacked on and not enjoyable a bit, so people subconsciously justify destroying/altering game components, because otherwise it would seem like they don't like the story. Therefore they "tricked" themselves into thinking that they like legacy. I'm pretty sure people would enjoy Pandemic Legacy exactly as much (if not more) if it was reusable.


IMO, it's completely the reverse of what you just said. The Legacy system is the complete "core" of the game and is what makes it so great. While the story feels pretty tacked on to me. You have to really get involved in the theme of the game to understand the storyline. If you want an in-depth story, Legacy wouldn't be my first choice.

Anyway, a lot of us aren't trying to argue with you. But based on arguments you've made, it sounds like you won't like Legacy, and there's nothing wrong with that. It isn't for everyone. I know firsthand a few people who have tried the same endeavor you are going to try to preserve the board game. All of them didn't like Legacy because it became too much of a bookkeeping nightmare to keep track of everything. I don't want to dismiss your challenge (I would like to see your findings), but you aren't likely to have the same experience as others.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
nomercyrider wrote:
I know firsthand a few people who have tried the same endeavor you are going to try to preserve the board game. All of them didn't like Legacy because it became too much of a bookkeeping nightmare to keep track of everything.

That's precisely what challenges me - to make it easy and efficient. I've seen two threads here with guides how to preserve everything and I was amazed how people manage to complicate their life.

I may fail, but we will see.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan McCollum
United States
California
flag msg tools
I don't get it. I'll never really get it. People talk about how destroying components in the game makes no sense and you get the same feeling from just putting it away.

CLEARLY YOU DON'T GET THE SAME FEELING! Otherwise people wouldn't be so hesitant to do it. Every thread I see that fights tooth and nail to not play the game the way it was intended proves that the mechanic of destroying things permanently has a psychological effect.

If you KNOW for sure this thing is one and only it does change how you go about everything. If I know I can reset everything why the hell do I care if a city falls other than it makes it harder mechanically. I know my opinion is harsh but I know the moment my friends and I will always remember from the game was having to rip up something my friend had gotten very attached too. It would have been a simple shrug if all he had to do was set it aside.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clive Jones

Cambridgeshire, UK
msg tools
mb
ned_poreyra wrote:
the legacy aspect is just tacked on and not enjoyable a bit

You're demonstrably wrong.

We enjoyed it immensely; a game in which there is no going back, no second chance, where we physically destroy things when they're gone, is very different from a mere campaign game.

You thinking you wouldn't enjoy it is a long way from it being objectively impossible to enjoy.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
dylanmcla wrote:
Every thread I see that fights tooth and nail to not play the game the way it was intended proves that the mechanic of destroying things permanently has a psychological effect.

Yeah, it has - psychological effect of not having fun throwing my money down the drain.

If Pandemic Legacy was 2$ I wouldn't think even a second about preserving anything, I would rip the hell apart anything they want me to, the same way I throw used character sheets and old RPG dungeon maps into the trash bin. But it costs 45$. It's the same difference as between disposable plastic cups and chinese porcelain ones.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clive Jones

Cambridgeshire, UK
msg tools
mb
Would you pay $8 to see a two-hour movie?

Realistically, Season One gives at least twelve hours of entertainment. Even if there are just two of you, it would cost a hundred bucks to enjoy yourselves for twelve hours at the cinema, compared with $45 for Season One.

Does Pandemic Legacy still seem like bad value for money if you look at it that way?

If so, well, nobody's forcing you to buy it. Buy Kingdomino instead. Kingdomino is good.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
clivej wrote:
Would you pay $8 to see a two-hour movie?

It doesn't calculate like that. I would pay 5000$ to see Lord of the Rings trilogy if there was no other way to ever see it in my life. For some movies I would pay 5, for some I would pay 50, and for most I would bash the hell out of ticket booth just to get my money back.

Anyway, I don't pay just for playing the game - I pay for the game, so there is no reason not to keep it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clive Jones

Cambridgeshire, UK
msg tools
mb
Again, if you want to spend your money on possessions rather than experiences, that's up to you. Even though research suggests experiences can be the better choice in terms of bringing happiness.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Very few people talk about the story of the game as anything special. A lot of people talk about tearing up cards (or otherwise destroying defunct components) - particularly about the first time it happens during the game.

Empirically, the destruction of components is a more significant part of people's experience of Pandemic Legacy than the story is.

And there are more than a few RPG players who have an archive of old character sheets from characters they couldn't bear to dispose of after their time was done...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Banner
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
*heavy sigh*

As soon as I see the OP's name, I know it is going to be another thread throwing out blunt, antagonistic opinions with absolute assurance that some opinions are right and some are just wrong. And this is followed by expressed bafflement that others would take issue with this- whether or not any of that is genuine is another matter.

I took him at face value, giving him the benefit of the doubt, the first few times. You do get bites every time so I guess you have no reason to stop.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ned Poreyra
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
rmsgrey wrote:
Very few people talk about the story of the game as anything special.

Just to be precise - I'm not talking about text exclusively. Changes that happen to characters, board, rules etc. are part of the storytelling for me. I just don't agree that you need to tear up cards, put stickers and so on for those changes to have effect on players.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan McCollum
United States
California
flag msg tools
ned_poreyra wrote:

Yeah, it has - psychological effect of not having fun throwing my money down the drain.


Okay then this is where I'll stop because it's clear we just disagree fundamentally. I place more value on experience and you place more on the thing itself. Not going to argue which is the correct stance because I'm not sure there is one. But I will say throwing out a harsh opinion like "It adds nothing to the game" can be seen as insulting to all those who clearly felt it added a lot.

Plus you've never even played it, so by nature all your opinions about the game and format are only informed on what you think you may or may not like. Also there are already recharge packs made to undo everything if you really want to...so it's not much of a challenge you're putting upon yourself.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.