Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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Good night from Spain.

I have a question perhaps someone could answer (clarify) me about Condition and Skill RULES.

For the Class Pit Fighter Berserker, he has a Free Class Skill with BloodLust Condition to activate, and a Level Skill with the same Condition.

My question is: with the same 1 Hit Point spending, could both Skills be Activated at the same time, or ONLY ONE for each Hit Point spending?

Thanks for your answers.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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A strict reading of the rules would say you'd need to take two wounds to activate both, as the text for Bloodlust says:

Pg54 wrote:
[Bloodlust X] – To activate this Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take X Wounds.

Emphasis mine. I take 'this' to mean this and only this skill.

That said, this is probably open for interpretation or houseruling.
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Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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DoctorBandage wrote:
A strict reading of the rules would say you'd need to take two wounds to activate both, as the text for Bloodlust says:

Pg54 wrote:
[Bloodlust X] – To activate this Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take X Wounds.

Emphasis mine. I take 'this' to mean this and only this skill.

That said, this is probably open for interpretation or houseruling.


That's the point. To activate "this" Skill. But in that case, 2 Skills (One Free and One Level Skill) could activate for the same Combat Action with the expenditure of only 1 Hit Point. So, perhaps with the same Hit Point you can activate both, because you fulfill the Condition to use both.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Using the same logic that you could use one spend to activate two Bloodlust Skills, you could also spend 5XP to buy all of your 5XP Skills at the same time. Of course, this is absurd and incorrect.

Thus, the Bloodlust (and Blood Tribute) Skills come at a cost simply for each Skill alone and you must pay multiple times to use multiple such Skills.
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Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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Clipper wrote:
Using the same logic that you could use one spend to activate two Bloodlust Skills, you could also spend 5XP to buy all of your 5XP Skills at the same time. Of course, this is absurd and incorrect.

Thus, the Bloodlust (and Blood Tribute) Skills come at a cost simply for each Skill alone and you must pay multiple times to use multiple such Skills.


The only problem for that logic is that XP spending is well explained on RuleBook, but not Condition (and, specifically, on Pit Fighter Berserker Class). So it's easy to understand that you only can purchase a Skill with a single 5/10 XP cost, but not activate 2 Skills from different sources (Free and Level Skill) with the same Condition.

Of course, you can go for one of those two ways; as said before, "house rules" may be the key.
 
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Julien Duminil
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Quote:
Inner Rage
[Bloodlust 1] Attack: You may Re-roll any number of Attack dice one additional time.
IMO here you should read [Bloodlust 1] as:
Quote:
To activate the Inner Rage Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take 1 Wounds.

And for the Bloodlust skill:
Quote:
Bloodlust
[Bloodlust 1] Melee: +1 Wound
you should read [Bloodlust 1] as:
Quote:
To activate the Bloodlust Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take 1 Wounds.


Edit: ok, it is not clearly stated that the voluntarily taken Wound cannot be used to fulfill other conditions, but I really doubt it has be designed that voluntary take 1 Wound could trigger all your Bloodlust skills AND all you allies in LoS Blood Tribute skills.
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Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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DummySphere wrote:
Quote:
Inner Rage
[Bloodlust 1] Attack: You may Re-roll any number of Attack dice one additional time.
IMO here you should read [Bloodlust 1] as:
Quote:
To activate the Inner Rage Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take 1 Wounds.

And for the Bloodlust skill:
Quote:
Bloodlust
[Bloodlust 1] Melee: +1 Wound
you should read [Bloodlust 1] as:
Quote:
To activate the Bloodlust Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take 1 Wounds.


Edit: ok, it is not clearly stated that the voluntarily taken Wound cannot be used to fulfill other conditions, but I really doubt it has be designed that voluntary take 1 Wound could trigger all your Bloodlust skills AND all you allies in LoS Blood Tribute skills.


So, your explaining is that to activate both at same time, you have to spend 2 Wounds. Ok. That's an interpretation. Thanks for your answer.

Well. As I see that Class, the combination of both BloodLust it's not too powerful to be a mistake spending only 1 Wound (there are other Skills that are more powerful with a single Condition [For example, Sustain Damage of Shadow Barbarian, or Hate Sustains of Pit Fighter Berserker]) but, of course, that rules review may be the correct answer. Actually, I think that it's the other way. Asking designer should be the better option, but... well. I'll apply "house rules" to balance until have my research done.

NOTE: Perhaps you are right about Blood Tribute.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Some further food for thought to help decide which interpretation was intended...

Assume a custom character is released with a [Bloodlust 2] Special Skill. Would you allow that in combination with Bloodlust 1 Skills? They spend 2 to activate the Special Skill, so they haven't spent exactly 1. Should the Bloodlust Skill have been written as suffering 'at least X' wounds, or did they simply not intend it to be stacked?

If you rule that way for Bloodlust, you would have to rule it for Blood Tribute too, or you ren't being consistent. That means that if you are playing Morrigan as a Pit Fighter Beserker, he can use his Blood Tribute and Bloodlust skills by choosing himself to suffer a wound. Are you OK with that?

I would totally be on the side of using multiple Bloodlust Skills with a single cost if there was some sort of ability that allowed you any Hero to voluntarily take wounds. It would be clear then that the taking of wounds is a trigger for the Bloodlust and Blood Tribute Skills. However, other Heroes can't do this, even if they would want to. The only way for Heroes to voluntarily take wounds is by using a Bloodlust or Blood Tribute Skill, which lends itself to the idea that you must pay multiple times to use multiple Skills.

Yes, none of these disprove the idea you are going for, but it might help you see why it's much more probable that the intended method is to spend per Skill used.
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Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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Clipper wrote:
Some further food for thought to help decide which interpretation was intended...

Assume a custom character is released with a [Bloodlust 2] Special Skill. Would you allow that in combination with Bloodlust 1 Skills? They spend 2 to activate the Special Skill, so they haven't spent exactly 1. Should the Bloodlust Skill have been written as suffering 'at least X' wounds, or did they simply not intend it to be stacked?

If you rule that way for Bloodlust, you would have to rule it for Blood Tribute too, or you aren't being consistent. That means that if you are playing Morrigan as a Pit Fighter Beserker, he can use his Blood Tribute and Bloodlust skills by choosing himself to suffer a wound. Are you OK with that?

I would totally be on the side of using multiple Bloodlust Skills with a single cost if there was some sort of ability that allowed you any Hero to voluntarily take wounds. It would be clear then that the taking of wounds is a trigger for the Bloodlust and Blood Tribute Skills. However, other Heroes can't do this, even if they would want to. The only way for Heroes to voluntarily take wounds is by using a Bloodlust or Blood Tribute Skill, which lends itself to the idea that you must pay multiple times to use multiple Skills.

Yes, none of these disprove the idea you are going for, but it might help you see why it's much more probable that the intended method is to spend per Skill used.


Don't worry. All understood. By the way, the BloodLust (in Pit Fighter Berserker's case, for example) is less powerful in effects for the exchange you have to pay than other Skills using Bams or Diamonds. And yes, I see your point about the mechanics of BloodLust, Blood Tribute and use of X Wounds in EACH Skill, not in ALL Skills (at the same time) triggered for the payment (and, well... If you pay 1 or more Wounds, well... you could activate Skills with the all Wounds payment or less, but that's for other day).
 
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Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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Well.
After reading again rules, here is my point:

according to CONDITION rules, when you satisfy a Condition, you can use a Skill (ANY Skill you have that satisfy that Condition).

There is no place when you specifically read ONLY THIS ONE Skill when you satisfy a Condition to use Skills.

Here is another text too: "Skills may be preceded by a Condition, describing a prerequisite for the Skill to function. Conditions are written in bold and between [brackets]. Anything described after the Condition is only active if the Condition is satisfied." So, when you read this, and, for example, you read the option [Shadow Mode], you can activate Skills when you are in Shadow Mode (ALL), because, if that's where in the way you say ONLY ONE SKILL, when you would stay in Shadow Mode you only could activate ONE of the Shadow Mode Skills.

Then, in the same way, when you satisfy taking X Wounds in BloodLust or Blood Tribute, you can activate Skills with those Conditions.

Yes. You read "To activate this skill", but you have (in some cases) "this skill", and "this other skill", and perhaps "this skill too" in a Class Sheet (in some cases you have more than one Skill with Condition in the same Class Sheet). The text says not THIS ONLY SKILL or something that justify the use of only one Skill with the Condition fulfillment.

I hope my point can be understood. Anyway, I understand the other point too. This is not a fighting for reason, only finding the correct interpretation. Thanks all for your help.
 
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Julien Duminil
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Yeah, the problem is not really "this Skill", but the following condition.
Is it "voluntary take X Wounds (can be shared with other Skill)" or "voluntary take X Wounds (dedicated to this Skill)"?

If you want an official statement, I guess you have to open a "Rules Question" ticket on CMON support site, they usually answer within a day (from my low experience ).
https://support.cmon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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That makes me think of one more thing...

All the Conditions other than Bloodlust and Blood Tribute are described as: "The Skill is active if..."

Bloodlust and Blood Tribute instead start with: "To activate this Skill..."

It would be very easy for them to have used the same text across all Conditions. For example, Bloodlust X would be:

"Bloodlust X: The Skill is active if the Hero has voluntarily taken X Wounds this turn."

With this wording, it would be obvious that the Bloodlust Skills stack together off a single payment.

Instead the Condition really is:
"Bloodlust X: To activate this Skill, the Hero must voluntarily take X Wounds."

That provides another heavy implication that Bloodlust and Blood Tribute work differently to the other Conditions.
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Eric B
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SirHowlerLupino wrote:
By the way, the BloodLust (in Pit Fighter Berserker's case, for example) is less powerful in effects for the exchange you have to pay than other Skills using Bams or Diamonds.


I wouldn't necessarily say that. When trying to figure out how something works, I think it's definitely a good idea to compare it to other similar things in the game to try and gauge how powerful it is meant to be. With Bloodlust at skill level one, you take one wound and do one guaranteed wound. I can't think of any other level one skills (other than the Sorcerer's and Bonecrusher's free class skills, and the similar Blood Tribute skill) that give a guaranteed wound. All others must be rolled to achieve the wound and have a decent chance to fail at low levels since most other characters are only rolling a few yellow dice then. That means there is no chance of diamonds and a small chance of getting bams. The Assassin gets one guaranteed wound at level two, but must be in Shadow Mode and has some major penalties from their free class skill.

Moreover, if only taking the damage once for Bloodlust allowed you to do one wound (three when you max it) AND re-roll any number of attack dice (that alone is pretty powerful since you can select only the bad ones), I would think it would be highly over powered. I mean most other classes just have Slippery, or some form of it, as their free class skill. Others have a negative in the Assassin's case or pretty much a wash in the Priest's. The Barbarian, who is probably the most similar to the Pit Fighter, only gets +1 health as a free class skill which is quickly negated by Enhance Health. Several classes have re-rolls as low level learned skills, but they must re-roll ALL dice so they can't save the good ones and are more likely to get worse rolls. The Ranger can spend 1 xp to re-roll any defense dice but the Pit Fighter gets the attack dice version for free if they take 1 wound? That seems comparable.

Lastly I think it's important to look at the potential power. At level 5, you could take 3 wounds and do 9 back to an enemy. You think you should also get to re-roll any attack dice each time, which would most likely get you another 2-3 wounds on average? So in three turns, you take 3 wounds yourself and end up doing 15-18 wounds to an enemy with nothing more than one bought skill and one free skill? That seems massively overpowered to me. The Sorcerer only comes close with a lot of decent rolls, but she must also take damage herself from Blood Tribute and requires at lest four different skills combined (Necro, Magic Spark, Blood Rage, and Shadow Drain), as well as being in Shadow Mode.


SirHowlerLupino wrote:
Anything described after the Condition is only active if the Condition is satisfied." So, when you read this, and, for example, you read the option [Shadow Mode], you can activate Skills when you are in Shadow Mode (ALL), because, if that's where in the way you say ONLY ONE SKILL, when you would stay in Shadow Mode you only could activate ONE of the Shadow Mode Skills.


Not necessarily. If you are in Shadow Mode, using a skill in it doesn't use up anything or take you out. If I used Shadow Mode for one skill, I am still in it for the next skill. If you got moved out after each skill use it might be another story.
 
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Christopher
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Can a hero use a bloodlust 1 ability multiple times in the same activation by paying the cost multiple times? For example, can the pit fighter berserker use the level 1 Bloodlust skill in an attack and take 5 wounds to deal 5 extra wounds?
 
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Eric B
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I would assume no since it's linked to a melee attack and doesn't have a repeat modifier.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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SpoDaddy wrote:
Can a hero use a bloodlust 1 ability multiple times in the same activation by paying the cost multiple times? For example, can the pit fighter berserker use the level 1 Bloodlust skill in an attack and take 5 wounds to deal 5 extra wounds?

Provided it's not a Signature, you can use it multiple times per activation, but only one time per attack. As Eric points out, all Skills without a 'repeat' modifier are limited to a single usage per attack.
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Eric B
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It could create some potentially weird situations with other heroes too. For instance if the Sorcerer had the level 4 version of Enhanced Health she could use Blood Tribute 6 times, dealing 18 wounds. Then you could have Shadow Drain which would do another 3 wounds max, and heal 3 of the damage you just took. Used along with Magic Sparks, that's usually 21 wounds (wounds, not swords) per attack while effectively only taking 3 wounds yourself.
 
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Miguel Nowe Meyak Ishmant Lupino
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After playing for several times and saw the huge amount of damage that (for example) the Ranger NightRunner can do with SafeShot and other Abilities used when a roll is done (affecting Defense Dices and Attack Dices), I'm not too much concerned about THIS (Lastly I think it's important to look at the potential power. At level 5, you could take 3 wounds and do 9 back to an enemy. You think you should also get to re-roll any attack dice each time, which would most likely get you another 2-3 wounds on average? So in three turns, you take 3 wounds yourself and end up doing 15-18 wounds to an enemy with nothing more than one bought skill and one free skill? That seems massively overpowered to me. The Sorcerer only comes close with a lot of decent rolls, but she must also take damage herself from Blood Tribute and requires at lest four different skills combined (Necro, Magic Spark, Blood Rage, and Shadow Drain), as well as being in Shadow Mode) because, perhaps, it's the only way to balance Pit Fighter Berserker with, for example, Ranger NightRunner or Paladin of Fury too (the Paladin of Fury it's another Character who can do A LOT OF DAMAGE).
 
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