Dan Ridge
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Curious if there are any particular games that people have turned down because they had too many parts or overwhelming rules or just plain too much information to track?

I know for myself off the bat that Zpocalypse was a bit too much for me to handle, there is a lot going on and the old eye glaze sets in quickly.

I suppose you could say this about several Fantasy Flight games as well, they tend to have a rich assortment of little bits to keep track of things as well as some complicated rule sets.
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Chris Mcpherson
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No, I don't really get the whole "fiddly" issue. Not downplaying others feelings or opinions but I have never cared about how many moving parts a game has.
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shawn
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yes for sure.

my tastes have slowly shifted to light or medium games an hour or less. anything with too many tokens, bits and cards will usually turn me off. I will play games like this but only if it's with experienced players.

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Laura Creighton
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Playing Sentinels of the Multiverse, the android app has spoiled me, and I now find all of the bookeeping of the 'and you get +x from this ability, and +y from that this is a cold attack, but -z because this environment card is showing' for the Board Game version to be too much work. To the point where 4 of us sat down in person and played the app together, rather than the game, so we could get the 'in person and I get to watch your face' social aspect we wanted without the 'oh no, I was supposed to get +2 on that last attack, but I forgot! experience'. Supposedly there is an android app that you can get to do just the bookkeeping for you, but we haven't tried that.
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Curt Carpenter
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Yes, not too infrequently.

It's not so much that there's an absolute max level of fiddliness, but rather the level of fiddliness seems overwrought for what the game is.
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"What do you mean, I can't pay in Meeples?"
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Yeah, absolutely.

A complex game isn't necessarily a good game, nor a bad one. It's more likely to be an inefficient game though - you don't need a complicated design to afford a large decision space nor enjoyable choices.

Adding more complexity doesn't necessarily make a game better, but it does make it harder to grok.
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Jordan S.
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Certainly. There are some times when a game feels like it's trying to do too much, and a glut of components and mechanisms is often the first sign. I'm not saying that there's no room for games that have these levels of complexity going on but complexity for it's own sake is not something I look for.

I prefer games where the elements are clear and uncluttered but the decisions are challenging, as opposed to the challenge being the deciphering of the elements themselves.
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Daniel Blumentritt
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Sentinals of the Multiverse.
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James Ludlow
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dice roll wrote:
Curious if there are any particular games that people have turned down because they had too many parts or overwhelming rules or just plain too much information to track?

I know for myself off the bat that Zpocalypse was a bit too much for me to handle, there is a lot going on and the old eye glaze sets in quickly.


No, but I've passed because zombies are a stupid theme and typically a shorthand for "terrible game".

Related question: Is there a good zombie game? I have yet to see one.
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Michael Debije
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Never.

I love the fiddly stuff. Sentinels I play solo with three characters. Wargames. Antiquity. No problems.

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Jade Knight
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Dealing with the 30 some-odd decks associated with Shadows of Brimstone along with the millions of tokens and whatnot, combined with the terribly-designed rulebooks, has made me less inclined to play those games.

I still own them, and still think they're decent games, but the billions of decks is a turnoff.
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chad winters
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Fire_Forever wrote:
Yeah, absolutely.

A complex game isn't necessarily a good game, nor a bad one. It's more likely to be an inefficient game though - you don't need a complicated design to afford a large decision space nor enjoyable choices.

Adding more complexity doesn't necessarily make a game better, but it does make it harder to grok.



Wait did I misread something. He said fiddly not complex. Two different things there. Plenty of complex games that are not fiddly at all and just as many fiddly games that are in no way complex.

Am I the wrong one here or are these two things not related at all ?
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Laura Creighton
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mi_de wrote:
Never.

I love the fiddly stuff. Sentinels I play solo with three characters. Wargames. Antiquity. No problems.



Hmmm. I thought to myself, yeah, solo + fiddly is fine-- though the Sentinels app makes things so much easier. But it's multiplayer + fiddly that I don't like about Sentinels. I think this is because should I mess up an attack, and I am alone, I can immediately decide that I will live with the mistake, or emergency-house-rule an adjustment, and continue. With other people, we have to discuss what to do, and all agree, and that's the part I don't want.
 
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J J
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dice roll wrote:
Curious if there are any particular games that people have turned down because they had too many parts or overwhelming rules or just plain too much information to track?

I know for myself off the bat that Zpocalypse was a bit too much for me to handle, there is a lot going on and the old eye glaze sets in quickly.

I suppose you could say this about several Fantasy Flight games as well, they tend to have a rich assortment of little bits to keep track of things as well as some complicated rule sets.


Yes and no. No to the specific things you mention, but yes in a related way.

I am, for example, leery of any and all FFG original publications, because of their crap rulebooks and their insistence on masses and masses of fiddly bits (and extra rules to go with them) for no good reason.

I have no issue with lots of bits, or lots of rules (I've coped with far larger rules sets than FFG has ever produced), but FFG games seem to me to have them just because that's the FFG design philosophy, not because the game-play needs them; and for the game-play you get, I don't find the additions at all worth while.

For every over-wrought bit of chrome, both rules and component, some other game will have handled the same thing in a much more elegant and restrained fashion.
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baboon baboonov
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Yes, I've passed whole generes of games because of it.
If the game is:
- over 2 hours - too long and doesn't worth it (also indicates fiddliness).
- has a lot of exceptions in the rulesgulp - for the sake of immersion in the theme. I would probably forget them and play incorrectly
- has a lot of tokens and parts - meaning that I'd waste time maintaining the game state and not playing the game.

This would exclude me from most theme-heavy games (ameritrash), wargames etc.

That's why I dislike all of Vital Lacerda's games...fiddly rules.
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A P
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Most Stefan Feld designs put me off for this reason. It's all very good having multiple paths to victory and I don't object to Points Salad in principle, but if it's not reasonbly clear to me early on why I would want to do particular things, and which things are a good strategy for the beginning, I will generally be put off.
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Martin G
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jdludlow wrote:

Related question: Is there a good zombie game? I have yet to see one.


Hit Z Road is the first I have enjoyed.

As for the original question, yes, many times. I'm only really interested in complexity if it's justified thematically (e.g. to better represent a historical situation).
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Mark Iradian
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Yep. I almost passed on Scythe because of the numerous components involved.

Any game that requires extensive setup or clean up gets a pass on my book. Same goes with complex games that are a pain to teach.
 
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Eric Engelmann
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dice roll wrote:
Curious if there are any particular games that people have turned down because they had too many parts or overwhelming rules or just plain too much information to track?
...


Yes. When available table space is tight or the game setup time (plus game time) exceeds available play time, I'll choose against a game like Caverna.
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Henry Dove
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Yes, I like Brewcrafters, but the print is so small on so many pieces that I have trouble playing it. Sometimes I need glasses on sometimes off and so I will pass on it if I am not in the mood to strain my eyes.
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chris thatcher
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Yes. Another contributing factor is if it also has a bad rulebook.

Lost Valley: The Yukon Goldrush 1896 is one such game for me. Ive played a few times and I do enjoy it but it has loads of bits, is fiddly to set up and maintain and has a bad/confusing rulebook.
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David SL
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I've recently been put off of Bunny Kingdom because it looks far too small for what it is. This is the first time I've ever even considered this issue. That said, I've recently received Tiny Epic Quest which looks more fiddly, but it's so beautiful I care not.
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Harv Veerman
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I'm SO afraid I might pass on Merlin because of the pictures I've seen...
 
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Bryan Carpenter
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checkrazor76 wrote:
Fire_Forever wrote:
Yeah, absolutely.

A complex game isn't necessarily a good game, nor a bad one. It's more likely to be an inefficient game though - you don't need a complicated design to afford a large decision space nor enjoyable choices.

Adding more complexity doesn't necessarily make a game better, but it does make it harder to grok.



Wait did I misread something. He said fiddly not complex. Two different things there. Plenty of complex games that are not fiddly at all and just as many fiddly games that are in no way complex.

Am I the wrong one here or are these two things not related at all ?


I feel that I agree with you that fiddly and complex are not the same thing. I am struggling to put the difference into words, though, except for "I like complicated but I don't like fiddly".

So in my head I think fiddly is where things get 'complicated for the sake of being complicated' and complex is 'justifiably complex'.

Hmm... I realise that this is rather stream of conciousness typing but does anyone else agree that fiddly doesn't equal complex?
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Yes. I have never written off a game completely because of it but i might decide not to play at that particular moment because i dont feel like dealing wwith it.
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