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Subject: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Contest Ready rss

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Jesse Worsham
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This is an entry for the 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest



Farmintin'
by Jesse Worsham

Players: 2
Game Time: TBD
Age: 11+*
*Note this game is essentially an alcohol reference. Game difficulty likely appropriate for 11+

Current Phase: Contest Readylaugh

Synopsis: Farmintin' is a 2 player game focusing on microbreweries that compete to grow their own barley and hops, brew their beer, and distribute it to the local watering holes. Game will use area control/area influence, simultaneous action selection, and some take that mechanics.

Components: (Still in development)
3 pages of mini cards (1.75"x2.5")
1 page of .75" tokens
Rules! not mint tin sized yet.

Component files have all been linked! Proof that updated files will fit inside of tin have been posted! meeple

Photos of updated components and gameplay have been uploaded!

Some slightly staged gameplay to show components in action:


A closer view of some of the new components with some of the old ones. Artwork is still in early stage/(sourced from public domain) :


And proof that everything will fit in the tin! Look at all them tokens! Seriously, I don't think I can fit anymore :


I'll upload an image of the mint tin sized rules fitting with everything else soon. Just gotta type them up. It's hard with a tiny typewriter..

... So play-testing was incredibly useful! I have now revamped the rules to provide more clarity and to make the game more exciting with a little more strategy and a hint of luck! Just gotta test this new version out now...

Rules have been released!
Tokens have been released!
Cards have been released!
...
All components have been released!
Looking forward to y'all's thoughts!
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Alex Wendling
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Gorgeous art and components! I was really skeptical looking at everything spread out how it would fit, but that's some great space management!

Looking forward to trying this one out.
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Jesse Worsham
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Thank you! I really appreciate your checking it out! And yeah, I'm a little worried because now I have to fit rules in, too.

Gonna test it out this weekend and put up files soon!
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Wow! I like your graphics and layout. Very legible. And your token and card quality look excellent. Did you make the components yourself in house? What kind of materials or services are you using? As a beer fan I'm excited to play test when you get your files up.
As for packing in your rules, you could move the image on the inside of the lid to the cover and print them on the inner lid and/or bottom of the tin if they aren't lengthy. These are also great spots for quick reference materials. If your rules are longer and need to be printed try wrapping your contents in a folded sheet similar to the way altoids wraps their mints with that thin paper. It not only allows you to fold the ends over the top of the pieces to help secure them before closing the lid but also acts as a sort of tray that can help lift the components out of the tin. I'm doing this with my game design and it has worked out very well for me and hope it helps solve your issue.
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Jesse Worsham
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
TyGuy22 wrote:
Wow! I like your graphics and layout. Very legible. And your token and card quality look excellent. Did you make the components yourself in house? What kind of materials or services are you using?

Thank you! I'm glad you like how they look! I tried to get my graphics to be as clear and as language independent as possible.

And thanks! I made them on my own. I take my PnP'ing quite seriously
I used 100 lb cover stock (270gsm) for the cards and 65lb linen cover stock on top of 14-ply chipboard for the tokens, which I cut out with my brand new 3/4" arch punch (incredible tool which I wish I had had long before now).

TyGuy22 wrote:
As for packing in your rules, you could move the image on the inside of the lid to the cover and print them on the inner lid and/or bottom of the tin if they aren't lengthy. These are also great spots for quick reference materials. If your rules are longer and need to be printed try wrapping your contents in a folded sheet similar to the way altoids wraps their mints with that thin paper. It not only allows you to fold the ends over the top of the pieces to help secure them before closing the lid but also acts as a sort of tray that can help lift the components out of the tin. I'm doing this with my game design and it has worked out very well for me and hope it helps solve your issue.

Awesome ideas for the rules! I'll probably be trying to get them onto their own cards, but if I run out of room, I'm very keen on trying the altoids style paper wrap.
 
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Alex Wendling
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
TyGuy22 wrote:
It not only allows you to fold the ends over the top of the pieces to help secure them before closing the lid but also acts as a sort of tray that can help lift the components out of the tin. I'm doing this with my game design and it has worked out very well for me and hope it helps solve your issue.

This is brilliant. I've been getting angry that there's always one or two cards sitting on the bottom that I can't quite pull out and when I try to dump them just get caught on the rim. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
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Jesse Worsham
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Rules have been uploaded! Cards and tokens were uploaded shortly behind them!

Please let me know what you think of everything so far! Hope you enjoy the game
 
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Alex Bardy
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready

Hi Jesse,

First off, congrats on the production quality - very impressive. My own design has quite a lot of cards, so I'll probably not be able to use a card-stock that's too thick... Particularly liked what you did with the counters standing up!

My own suggestion re. the rules would be to try and get them onto a foldable A5 sheet (haven't been able to access them btw so no idea how long they are). Depending on the length of the rules, you can use a tri-fold design which'll effectively split a single A5 page into three -- if you make another fold, that effectively gives you 6-12 pages on a single sheet, with each page approx. 70 x 60mm -- just enough to have that small curve at the bottom to lift the rest of the cards out?

Hope that helps.



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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Alex,

Thanks for tip on how to make my rules more compact! I've been trying a few different things with the rules and have decided to for one sheet that's the width of the inside of the box and wraps around the components like TyGuy mentioned earlier. If this doesn't work, I may well try the tri-fold technique instead!

mangozine wrote:
(haven't been able to access them btw so no idea how long they are)

Do you mean you haven't looked at them or there's something wrong with my Google Drive? I tried several different things on my Google Drive to say that I'm sharing my files with anyone that has the link, but I don't know if it's working. I got a couple of emails saying that at least two people requested access to them, so I am assuming I'm doing something wrong here. blush
 
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Downloading just fine right now. Looking forward to trying it out!
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Brittany Hirl
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
SUPES cool!!!! bet you have a great gf that has play tested with you and been a huge help in working on the rules and game play. good luck with the contest friend <3<3kiss
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Martin Worrall
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready


Hi I've been play testing your Farmintin game.

I have a few questions and comments.

The planting and watering mechanic is very nice. There is some subtle bluffing and trying to second guess your opponent in it. Nice.

When a crop needs 2 turns to grow does it stay next to the field and then mean that this field isn't available next turn?

I assume it would, however what happens when you have 2 crops needing 2 turns to grow? (As I had) This means only 1 field is available next turn which will have an affect on how the watering is played. Is this correct? Do crops needing 2 turns need watering on their second turn? I assume not.

If crops needing 2 turns to grow don't stay next to the field then you could on your next turn have 4 crops in 3 fields!

Do Golden seeds need any water at all or do they just produce Hops or Barley regardless of watering?

Some clarification needed here as it's a clever system for planting and harvesting.

I wan't sure if the planting, harvesting, fermenting and distribution all happened on the same turn or if you had to wait for the next turn to harvest after planting, or to ferment after harvesting. Common sense would say to wait until 'next year' but this wasn't clear. Initially we played it with all phases happening on the same turn and it played okay. But I guess that's not correct?

The Distribution phase wasn't clear. Does a player have to complete only their half of an order including the middle beer or the whole order? We played only completing half plus the middle beer and it felt right to do this.
Also, if player 1 nearly completes a Bar Order but player 2 comes in and completes it first, what happens to player 1's beers? It doesn't say in the rules. I would have thought they just move to another order (as they would in real life) and are not lost.

The rate of Hop and Barley production is pretty slow compared to the number needed to complete several orders, is there any way of increasing the yield after a few turns or reducing the number of red/blue tokens needed to win? A shorter running time would feel better?

Overall it's an interesting resource management game with some subtle tactics and strategy involved. Just some clarification on rules and situations needed.

Cheers (IPA)

Martin W





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Jesse Worsham
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Martin,

First off, let me say that I'm so glad that you've gotten a chance to play-test my game!
Let's see if I can answer your questions:

CitizenMMM wrote:

The planting and watering mechanic is very nice. There is some subtle bluffing and trying to second guess your opponent in it. Nice.

When a crop needs 2 turns to grow does it stay next to the field and then mean that this field isn't available next turn?

So glad you like the subtle bluffing element to the planting and watering mechanic!

Correct, crops that need 2 turns to grow stay next to the field, which means that the field is not available for planting during the next turn. They are placed horizontally next to the field to signify that they will take two turns.

CitizenMMM wrote:
Do crops needing 2 turns need watering on their second turn?

Yes. Crops that need two turns of watering will have to go through a second watering action in order to fully grow. However, the max number of turns to grow is 2. Thus on the second watering action for a given plant, any amount of water that would grow the plant in either 1 or 2 turns would produce a fully grown crop on your next turn, and any amount of water that would kill the plant would still kill that crop. So a barley on its second turn would grow fully with either 0 or 1 waters and would still wilt with 2 waters.

CitizenMMM wrote:
If crops needing 2 turns to grow don't stay next to the field then you could on your next turn have 4 crops in 3 fields!

That's an interesting idea! I know that the game tends to slow down a lot after you start brewing so maybe this could be a way to speed up the process from crop growing to brewing.

CitizenMMM wrote:
Do Golden seeds need any water at all or do they just produce Hops or Barley regardless of watering?

Golden Seeds will grow with 0, 1, or 2 waters in 1 turn to produce your choice of barley or hops and give you the preferred brewer token!

CitizenMMM wrote:
I wan't sure if the planting, harvesting, fermenting and distribution all happened on the same turn or if you had to wait for the next turn to harvest after planting, or to ferment after harvesting. Common sense would say to wait until 'next year' but this wasn't clear. Initially we played it with all phases happening on the same turn and it played okay. But I guess that's not correct?

Harvesting is part of the farming phase. It's actually the first part of the farming phase, so you will not harvest crops until the beginning of the second turn at the earliest. You will be able to plant on fields that have been cleared during the harvest action.

Kegging occurs at the beginning of the brewing phase for the same reason. It takes one "season/year/turn" to fully brew a beer. This means that the earliest you will keg a beer is on your third turn (if you were able to harvest hops and barley on your second turn and begin fermenting a Pale Ale on that turn).

Eventually all phases will occur on the same turn one after the next going Farming->Brewing->Distribution->Farming->Brewing->Distribution, etc.

CitizenMMM wrote:
The Distribution phase wasn't clear. Does a player have to complete only their half of an order including the middle beer or the whole order? We played only completing half plus the middle beer and it felt right to do this.

You are supposed to complete the whole order in a semi-cooperative manner. If an order says 2 IPAs, 2 Stouts, and 1 Lager, then you and your opponent will place tokens on your respective sides adding up to a collective 2 IPAs, 2 Stouts, and 1 Lager. This is to mimic a real bar that would likely have beers from multiple breweries.

In this example, you could place 1 IPA and 2 Stouts, and your opponent could place 1 IPA and 1 Lager to complete the order. In this scenario, you would place a token on the corresponding number on bar row since you held majority. Whoever placed the last token to finish the order would take the order card as a spare fermenter.

CitizenMMM wrote:
Also, if player 1 nearly completes a Bar Order but player 2 comes in and completes it first, what happens to player 1's beers? It doesn't say in the rules. I would have thought they just move to another order (as they would in real life) and are not lost.

Like stated above, it will likely require both players beers to fill the order card. I have an idea for what will happen to the beers that were used to finish the bar order card that I will describe in response to the next question.

The person that places the last beer token on the order card gets to keep the card as a spare fermenter. The person that held majority in the order gets to place an influence token. Each beer that was used to fill an order gives you 1 point. (I need to make a point tracker for this game and have not done so.. My apologies)

CitizenMMM wrote:
The rate of Hop and Barley production is pretty slow compared to the number needed to complete several orders, is there any way of increasing the yield after a few turns or reducing the number of red/blue tokens needed to win? A shorter running time would feel better?

I completely agree. I have struggled to come up with a way to make the game flow faster once the brewing/distribution phases kick off because although the farming phase is enjoyable for the bluffing aspect, it certainly bogs down the end of the game. I have 2 ideas that I am wanting to try out to give the game a shorter running time:

Option 1. Fitting the idea that you would normally brew specific beers for more than one bar:

After filling a bar order card, the majority player gets to keep up to half of the allotted kegs (rounded down) for future use on other order cards (3 on orders of 7, 2 on orders of 5, and 1 on orders of 3). The other player gets to keep up to one fewer than this (2 on orders of 7, 1 on orders of 5, and 0 on orders of 3). You would be allowed to select from beer tokens that you originally placed onto that beer order card. So if you placed (2 IPAs and 1 Lager) and your opponent placed (1 Stout and 1 Lager) to complete an order card, you could choose to keep (2 IPAs) -or- (1 IPA and 1 Lager) and your opponent could choose to keep (1 Stout) -or- (1 Lager) for future use.

This would cause the end game to move much faster and would feel much more rewarding to hold majority on bar order cards. There would also likely need to be a limit of placing up to 2 beer tokens/turn during the distribution phase to prevent a complete runaway victory.

Option 2. Fitting the idea that you'd normally make more than 1 keg/fermentation process:

You could place a specific recipe into your fermenter and collect a beer token every round without needing to remove the hops/barley tokens. i.e. you could continue to collect this beer indefinitely and stock up on that style until you changed recipes (which would require fresh crop ingredients).



I'm leaning towards option 1 as I think this will allow the farming aspect to continue to play a major role in the subsequent brewing phase and give that bluffing aspect a little more grit.




Again, so glad you found a chance to test out my game! Thank you for the kind comments!
I hope my answers have clarified things more than muddied them...

Cheers! (Pale Ale)
 
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Jesse Worsham
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
GreenTea532 wrote:
Downloading just fine right now. Looking forward to trying it out!

Glad the link is working. Looking forward to hearing what you think about the game! Please feel free to ask for clarifications on any rules.
 
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giampiero randazzo
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
jdub027 wrote:
GreenTea532 wrote:
Downloading just fine right now. Looking forward to trying it out!

Glad the link is working. Looking forward to hearing what you think about the game! Please feel free to ask for clarifications on any rules.

can I help you improve the graphics of your game?


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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
etacarinae1965 wrote:
jdub027 wrote:
GreenTea532 wrote:
Downloading just fine right now. Looking forward to trying it out!

Glad the link is working. Looking forward to hearing what you think about the game! Please feel free to ask for clarifications on any rules.

can I help you improve the graphics of your game?

That would be very kind of you! I'd really appreciate all of the help I can get from a graphics perspective. What ideas have you had on the finished look of the game?

There are certain things that I'd like to finalize before making art for them, though. Especially "Bar Row" and the names of Bar 1-9. I'll be editing them to have some clever names.

Thank you for your offer to help!
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Martin Worrall
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
You're welcome

Thanks for clearing up all my questions. Yes, waiting a turn to ferment and another to distribute makes it more realistic and of course by that time all phases will take place in the same turn any way.

To increase the yield through planting and harvesting could you add a 4th field and an extra crop and an extra water token so that 3 crops are produced each turn/year. (Unless 1 or 2 need a second year of watering)

Or perhaps a 'bumper harvest' somehow chosen at random when harvests are doubled for that year.
Perhaps if both players grow all crops with one water then this is classed as a bumper harvest and yield is doubled or at least an extra hops/barley of their choice? (This means both players will have read the other intentions and therefore deserve a boost?)

I might give this idea a test myself....

Martin W
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
etacarinae1965 wrote:
jdub027 wrote:
GreenTea532 wrote:
Downloading just fine right now. Looking forward to trying it out!

Glad the link is working. Looking forward to hearing what you think about the game! Please feel free to ask for clarifications on any rules.

can I help you improve the graphics of your game?




Hi Jesse, how does this cover version look like?
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
I think that looks amazing!! Thank you for taking the time to make such an awesome cover makeover!
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
jdub027 wrote:
I think that looks amazing!! Thank you for taking the time to make such an awesome cover makeover!

I had forgotten this...
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Hi, Jesse -

I haven't had a chance to play a real game so far, but I've printed it all out and started to go through the motions, looking for rough edges. A few quick initial thoughts:

- Martin commented on the pace of farming slowing the game down, and it's clear there's a bottleneck there. Have you considered offering a greater harvest from each field - 2 or 3 tokens - to enable brewers to ferment more at once? Component limits might work against you here, I suppose, but a higher reward could make the take-that portion of farming more fun.

- Why I, II, III, and X for watering? I realize Roman numerals don't have a zero, but I still can't help but think of the X as ten. Perhaps a null sign ∅, if you don't want a round 0?

- I found the player aids nigh unreadable due to both the size and the ornate font. Something cleaner would read better. You can also trim the wordiness on there to buy yourself more space. And use the back side, since you're printing it anyway. Save some details for the rules. You can always eliminate things like the "Player Aid" title, too.

- I dig the bar-order point strategy, and the way it gives you an additional consideration over simply churning out the most brews.

I'm looking forward to giving this a closer look when I get the chance, even if it's just a solo playthrough to start.
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
bgarthwaite wrote:
Hi, Jesse -

I haven't had a chance to play a real game so far, but I've printed it all out and started to go through the motions, looking for rough edges. A few quick initial thoughts:

Brian,
Thank you for the feedback!

Quote:
- Martin commented on the pace of farming slowing the game down, and it's clear there's a bottleneck there. Have you considered offering a greater harvest from each field - 2 or 3 tokens - to enable brewers to ferment more at once? Component limits might work against you here, I suppose, but a higher reward could make the take-that portion of farming more fun.

I am very desperate for some sort of answer to that initial bottleneck of farming and brewing. My working idea for that is to reward players that patiently took 2 turns to grow a crop to receive 2 harvests for those respective crops.

Quote:
- Why I, II, III, and X for watering? I realize Roman numerals don't have a zero, but I still can't help but think of the X as ten. Perhaps a null sign ∅, if you don't want a round 0?

Good catch! I think I'll go with a null sign.

Quote:
- I found the player aids nigh unreadable due to both the size and the ornate font. Something cleaner would read better. You can also trim the wordiness on there to buy yourself more space. And use the back side, since you're printing it anyway. Save some details for the rules. You can always eliminate things like the "Player Aid" title, too.

I will make some changes to those cards and make sure they have only bare necessities and a much more legible font.

Quote:
- I dig the bar-order point strategy, and the way it gives you an additional consideration over simply churning out the most brews.

Thanks! I wanted to give an extra twist to decision making.

Quote:
I'm looking forward to giving this a closer look when I get the chance, even if it's just a solo playthrough to start.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts! Everything you've said so far has been incredibly helpful!
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Just looking at a few numbers, and here's what I'm seeing. Let's assume you're playing randomly. (You wouldn't. Bear with me.) Each round, you can gain, at most, 2 ingredients. Both players will need to brew a sum total of 43 beers to satisfy the bars, each of which has its own requirements. Let's say you're perfectly efficient: that's still 54 turns to grow & brew it all, not counting the initial farming lag. (And assuming you've smoothed out the lager lag with additional fermenters, which... maybe? With luck?)

But, because watering is random, you're not always successful, at least not right away. Each field's got, what, a 25% chance of 0 water, 25% 2 water, and 50% 1 water? Oversimplified, that's an expected value of 0.625 barley and 0.5 hops per turn, just over 1 ingredient each round. (I'm not counting golden seeds here, 'cause it's late.) Schmear that over a bunch of time, and it's gonna take 103 rounds to satisfy those thirsty barflies. Long time, and you'd best hope your opponent's not feeling mean for no reason, or no number of spare fermenters will help you meet clamoring demand.

The short version: You may need to readjust the quantities of beer you get for your inputs. Brewing a mess of stout means you can fill more orders, sure, but a surfeit's as much of a strategic issue than a deficit.
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Brian,

Thank you so much for your feedback on this. You've made some excellent observations and points. I've been very frustrated with the length of the game, and as you've pointed out, cutting down the total number of beer to satisfy the bars is an easy fix. I'm also planning on allowing players to double harvest on crops for which they waited 2 turns. Which should give players at least 1-2 crops each round (and up to 5 crops in one turn) and get over that early game slump a little better.

As far as bar order cards go, I will be at the very least replacing them with mostly 3 beers/card and cut down the total number needed to around 25-33 depending on whether or not I want to make 1 beer order cards. I will also be allowing players with majority supply of beers to "find" an additional keg of any of the beers they applied to that bar order. I think this will help speed up the game significantly and hopefully reduce play time significantly.

So it'll be 25-33 beers with 63-80 total required crops. This will cut crop production requirement on each player to 30-45 total, and with the worst of luck/watering take 30-45 turns to supply. With a little better luck, it will take players about 15-20 rounds to supply the necessary crops and about 15-20 rounds total for the brews not counting spare fermenters.

Hopefully, these adjustments will make the game much faster! I'll be posting new rules/cards when I get a chance.
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Jesse Worsham
United States
Lubbock
Texas
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Re: [WIP] Farmintin' - 2017 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready
Howdy all,

I've edited the cards fairly significantly and hope that this will allow for faster and better gameplay! These have been uploaded on the Google Drive.

The bar order cards are now all 3 beers total. This reduces the number needed to finish the game while still allowing for competition over each order card.

The player aids have also been edited to be in a more legible font with a little less excessive wording. They have also been equipped with a score tracker and will increase game requirements by 4 paper clips to keep track of score.

I replaced the "X" on the no watering card with a null/no water symbol.

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I also have been at work on the rules and will upload the changes soon.

Significant changes include:
- Earning 2 ingredient tokens for spending two turns to grow a crop. To signify this, simply place a hops/barley token on the crop at the beginning of its second turn. (i.e. during the harvest phase instead of harvesting the crop)

- Players that have placed 2 or more beers on a completed bar order card get to keep one of their choice to be placed on the next distribution phase.

- A reminder that every beer placed onto a completed bar order card is worth 1 point and should be marked on your player aid.


Please let me know if you have any suggestions/comments/questions! Thanks!
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