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BattleLore (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Valor and Vengeance vs Death Knight Executioner rss

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Jason Kempton
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Hello, played a bunch of sessions of this great game a few weeks back and hit the forums here to answer a bunch of questions, but there is still a few lingering.

I have seen a post here that the term "cannot" is an absolute term that cannot be ignored across most FFG rules.

I was using a Death Knight against a foot unit and had rolled 2 Retreats and 2 Heroic results meaning I could commit his executioner ability twice so that the retreats could not be ignored (the term on the executioner says 'cannot'). The footman would have to retreat into an unoccupied river hex thus causing it to take damage. The footman player decided to play a valor and vengeance lore card which says "the friendly unit ignores all retreats caused by that combat roll".

So we were not sure if the 'cannot' was important and that he should have reserved his card for later or it was a valid counter - and a rather nasty +2 dice bonus to the counter attack was to be had.

So to be ignored or not to be ignored that is the question.

EDITED it was 2 Heroic and 2 Retreat results rolled (Heroic instead of lore is what I intended to type)
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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Yeah, I don't think the lore card "ignore" could trump the Death Knight "cannot ignore." I would say the card would be useless in that situation.
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Dawid
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Well, "target unit cannot resolve retreat effects" no question about it, but if another effect allows it to "ignore all retreats", than i believe this unit is safe. If it ignores all retreats, than it acts as if there was no retreats at all.
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Dawid
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Carthoris wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the lore card "ignore" could trump the Death Knight "cannot ignore." I would say the card would be useless in that situation.
There is no "cannot ignore" on a Death Knight, there is "cannot resolve".
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Scott Lewis
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Ignipes wrote:
Well, "target unit cannot resolve retreat effects" no question about it, but if another effect allows it to "ignore all retreats", than i believe this unit is safe. If it ignores all retreats, than it acts as if there was no retreats at all.

I agree. If the figure is ignoring retreats, it doesn't matter if it can resolve them or not, they are completely ignored
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Giulio
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I think you read to much in this ability. From the rulebook:

"When a player resolves an attack for a unit with the Executioner
ability, he may commit a (Heroic) die result to cause the target unit to
be unable to retreat during the combat. If that unit is forced to
retreat, it suffers damage instead (unless it is supported)."

I read it as saying that the unit cannot retreat if it is forced to retreat even if it has a possible retreat path. If by being supported, or Immovable or by the play of a lore card, the unit can ignore retreat results (or a certain number of them), then it is NOT forced to retreat and consequently it does not take any damage (at least for the amount of retreats it can ignore).

Edit: Apparently we were answering all at the same time!
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Agreed, sigmazero13. This is quite clear from the Reference Book under Combat: Valor and Vengence must be played right after the combat roll is performed (step 2), at which point retreats are ignored. Resolving retreats only comes afterward (step 8).

Now, I understand that Valor and Vengeance could in principle be partially countered if the attacker can play a lore card that allows them to modify their dice results (step 3 of combat), as Valor and Vengeance ignore retreats from the combat roll from step 2 only, as seems quite explicit from the card ("after a combat roll is performed… ignore all retreats caused by that combat roll"—step 3 of combat modified the result of the combat roll, but there is no language that makes it part of the roll itself).
 
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Scott Lewis
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I think results from rerolls are still considered to be part of the combat roll.
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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Ah, the other replies were correct. I went off the language of the question, instead of plumbing my memory for the actual Death Knight "Executioner" ability. I should have recalled it; my daughter uses it regularly when playing against me!
 
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I think results from rerolls are still considered to be part of the combat roll.
I don't know for sure, but the language of Valor and Vengeance ("after a combat roll is performed") perfectly matches step 2 of the combat sequence ("Perform combat roll"), while step 3 (modifying the combat roll) is a completely separate step. Now, I'd be curious to see this clarified (if this has any implication thanks to existing cards or effects).
 
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Jason Kempton
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Great replies folks - appreciate it. Going to play it as Valor and Vengeance is a valid counter in this situation - and thanks for the catch on ignore vs resolve slip. It doesn't work the way I "wanted" because I was on the losing end angry
 
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Scott Lewis
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lebigot wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
I think results from rerolls are still considered to be part of the combat roll.
I don't know for sure, but the language of Valor and Vengeance ("after a combat roll is performed") perfectly matches step 2 of the combat sequence ("Perform combat roll"), while step 3 (modifying the combat roll) is a completely separate step. Now, I'd be curious to see this clarified (if this has any implication thanks to existing cards or effects).

Performing the combat roll is more than just rolling the dice - it's executing it as well, so would include rerolls.

I don't know of any game effects in this game that would apply on the initial roll, but not on the modified results.
 
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