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Subject: Game to easy? Did you tried Kickstarter WIP rules rss

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Tadej Vengust
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Game to easy? Did you tried Kickstarter WIP rules.

-Need an action to step in shadow mode. (I know we didn't get the tokens, but just use up to 6 tokens from any game, for action you can take 1 and step in shadow mode)
From Rulebook WIP
"As long as the Hero is in Shadow Mode:
• The Hero is ignored when tracing Enemies’ routes (see Enemies’
Phase, Move Step
• Enemies can’t trace a Line Of Sight to a Hero with a Shadow
Mode token and standing in a Shadow Zone.
• Enemies have one less Defense die (player’s choice, but before
any Combat roll) when being attacked by a Hero with a Shadow
Mode token and standing in a Shadow Zone
A Hero immediately exits Shadow Mode and loses his Shadow
Mode token as soon as:
• He stands in a Light Zone and an Enemy has a Line of Sight to
him during the Move Step of the Enemies’ Phase
• He stands in the same Zone as an Enemy at any time during the
Enemies’ Phase.
• He doesn’t spend the first Action in his Activation to Enter
Shadow Mode again."


-MOBs
From Rulebook WIP
"If the Enemies form a Mob (Boss + Minions), allocate Minions
in this order:
(1) One Minion joins the Boss in attacking the target Hero.
(2) One Minion for each additional Hero within Range and Line
Of Sight, regardless of Experience. If there aren’t enough Minions
in the Mob to attack all eligible Heroes, players choose.
(3) Any remaining Minions are set aside. They bring support to
their Boss for its Attack roll
• The Boss’ Combat roll gets an additional Hit per supporting Minion."


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Loig Roumois
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WIP shadow mode seems a bit clunky and propably slows down gameplay even though I like it a lot!

WIP MOB on the other hand I think is genius and I wonder why they took it out? maybe the MOBs where too powerful on lower levels.

The WIP MOB rules could be changes as follows:
The Mob including Boss is split into equal groups per level. so a level 3 MOB is split into 3 groups. Each group can attack individually and wounds don't transfer from one group the the next.
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Peter Baker
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In a 6 player game 6 mobs + dice would most likely equal being one shotted for the first few levels.
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Julien Duminil
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Digimortal wrote:
In a 6 player game 6 mobs + dice would most likely equal being one shotted for the first few levels.

Yes, the WIP Mob rule (3) doesn't scale well with the number of players.
I find the rule (2) interesting, though.
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Doctor Bandage
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I think it's important to note that the WIP rules did not have counter-attacks. The 'mobs attack everyone they can' rule was removed in favor of having every enemy counter-attack.

Doing both may be overkill to the heroes.
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Flo Heisenbrain
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By the way Monsters had only 2 different life totals:
one for 1-3 players and another for 4-6.
Probaby nerves solo and duo runs a bit (depending on what those HP where)
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Doctor Bandage
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Exactly, having only two life values made the game only scale well at 3 and 6. Anything else expected players to carry more weight than usual. The game scales much better now.

In fact, a lot of people seem to hold the WIP rulebook up as if it's better than the current book, but there are quite a few improvements in the current version.
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Tadej Vengust
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Exactly, having only two life values made the game only scale well at 3 and 6. Anything else expected players to carry more weight than usual. The game scales much better now.

In fact, a lot of people seem to hold the WIP rulebook up as if it's better than the current book, but there are quite a few improvements in the current version.


Best of both world? To make a game little harder? It was only suggestion, I played only 1st (introduction) quest yet, so cant tell if it is hard or not.
 
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Tadej Vengust
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What about this:

If the Enemies form a Mob (Boss + Minions), allocate Minions
in this order:
(1) One Minion joins the Boss in attacking the target Hero.
(2) One Minion for each additional Hero within Range and Line
Of Sight, regardless of Experience. If there aren’t enough Minions
in the Mob to attack all eligible Heroes, players choose.

(3) (2) Any remaining Minions are set aside. They bring support to
their Boss for its Attack roll
• The Boss’ Combat roll gets an additional Hit per supporting Minion.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The one issue of trying to include the Mob rules is that they adjusted the Mobs for the new game.

It seems that with the WIP, most Mobs only had 1 die of each colour max, as the Minion joining the Boss almost always doubles the number of dice rolled.

If yu try that with the dice numbers on the new mobs, then you're going to be up against a lot of 3-yellow+3-red attacks.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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I'm not trying to dismiss your idea at all. You can houserule anything you like for any reason you like.

I just find it odd that lots and lots of posts hold up the WIP rulebook as if it were somehow better. The current rulebook has a list of play-testers in the back that must have played with the WIP rules at some point and found them wanting. And that says a lot because a popular opinion around BGG is that CMON doesn't playtest their games enough, so the rules that were stripped out are likely flawed in ways that are quickly identified.

I get that people are disappointed that mobs aren't more interesting, but I think people should look for new ideas rather than jump back to a set of rules that have already been playtested and discarded, likely for good reason.

But I didn't mean to offend you, so apologies for that.
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Tadej Vengust
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Clipper wrote:
The one issue of trying to include the Mob rules is that they adjusted the Mobs for the new game.

It seems that with the WIP, most Mobs only had 1 die of each colour max, as the Minion joining the Boss almost always doubles the number of dice rolled.

If yu try that with the dice numbers on the new mobs, then you're going to be up against a lot of 3-yellow+3-red attacks.


I know that then 6 dices would be used in each counter attack. But for people who think that game is toooo easy, that could make game much harder.

If too hard, then maybe just combination of:
- rule 3
- 1 minion give support of 1 yellow dice
- 1 minion give support of 1 red dice
- if 1 minion alive then support of 1 yellow, if 1+ minion alive support of only 1 red (even if 10 minions)
 
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Tadej Vengust
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DoctorBandage wrote:
I'm not trying to dismiss your idea at all. You can houserule anything you like for any reason you like.

I just find it odd that lots and lots of posts hold up the WIP rulebook as if it were somehow better. The current rulebook has a list of play-testers in the back that must have played with the WIP rules at some point and found them wanting. And that says a lot because a popular opinion around BGG is that CMON doesn't playtest their games enough, so the rules that were stripped out are likely flawed in ways that are quickly identified.

I get that people are disappointed that mobs aren't more interesting, but I think people should look for new ideas rather than jump back to a set of rules that have already been playtested and discarded, likely for good reason.

But I didn't mean to offend you, so apologies for that.


It is just an idea for people who say (not game is easy) game is toooooo easy. For me it is good enough. If I want to play harder dungeon crawl I have Sword&Sorcery.
That's why I like Massive Darkness. To play more simple (in rules) dungeon crawl, just to enjoy the game and kill some monsters and disconnect from every day "problems"
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Doctor Bandage
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It seems to me that the people who are complaining the game is too easy say so because they're able to kill enemies before any counter-attacks go off. If that's why they're finding the game easy, then upping the damage output of mobs won't solve that problem as the mobs never get a chance to activate at all. Perhaps introducing something to increase enemy survivability is in order?

I'm 100% with you that MD is a simpler ruleset and that's a good thing. I love Gloomhaven, Imperial Assault, and the rest of the big sprawling epic campaign games as much as the next gal, but sometimes I just want to do a one-off adventure with some friends (or even solo) without the overhead of one of those other games. Zombicide filled that niche very well and I fully expect Massive Darkness will as well.
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Tadej Vengust
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DoctorBandage wrote:
It seems to me that the people who are complaining the game is too easy say so because they're able to kill enemies before any counter-attacks go off. If that's why they're finding the game easy, then upping the damage output of mobs won't solve that problem as the mobs never get a chance to activate at all. Perhaps introducing something to increase enemy survivability is in order?

I'm 100% with you that MD is a simpler ruleset and that's a good thing. I love Gloomhaven, Imperial Assault, and the rest of the big sprawling epic campaign games as much as the next gal, but sometimes I just want to do a one-off adventure with some friends (or even solo) without the overhead of one of those other games. Zombicide filled that niche very well and I fully expect Massive Darkness will as well.


That's why I like CMON games (AQ, Zombicide, MD). They are "read rulebook and play" (even if played wrong they are OK) and relax while playing.
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Sander van der Drift
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DoctorBandage wrote:
It seems to me that the people who are complaining the game is too easy say so because they're able to kill enemies before any counter-attacks go off. If that's why they're finding the game easy, then upping the damage output of mobs won't solve that problem as the mobs never get a chance to activate at all. Perhaps introducing something to increase enemy survivability is in order?

You are 100% right. We indeed need better mob rules that also improve the defense of a mob. At the same time the additional rules should scale with player count and easy to understand and remember. I'm planning to use the following additional mob rules:

Mob defense
If there are at least as many minions alive as the player count:
- Add one additional defense
- Reroll all blank results of the defense roll once
If there is at least one minion still alive, but less than the player count:
- Add one additional defense

Mob attack
If there are at least as many minions alive as the player count:
- Add one additional hit
- Reroll all blank results of the attack roll once
If there is at least one minion still alive, but less than the player count:
- Add one additional hit

Note
I think that the one additional defense/hit should in some way also scale with current level, but I'm not yet sure how. One additional defense/hit per level of the mob is too much. One additional defense/hit per inherent defense die is possibly too much. What do you think?

I think that these rules are easy to play with and improve the defense/offense of mobs. Please let me know what you think.
 
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Julien Duminil
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DoctorBandage wrote:
It seems to me that the people who are complaining the game is too easy say so because they're able to kill enemies before any counter-attacks go off.

That's part of the problem, but that's also what I like when playing solo, either I have to kill it before it can counter-attack, or hide.

The other part of the problem when playing with a party is that you can easily have a strong tank, then all other heroes can be safe from range against melee enemies, which is majority of mobs.
 
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Peter Baker
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You could always try a scalable defence model for durability, e.g:

1-2 Mobs = +1 Defence
3-4 Mobs = +2 Defence
5-6 Mobs = +3 Defence

Or

1-2 Mobs = +1 Blue Die
3-4 Mobs = +2 Blue Die
5-6 Mobs = +3 Blue Die
 
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