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Subject: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Contest Ready rss

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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Thanks for giving it another play Nick. There was one rule that you might have overlooked which allowed a snowball win-effect...

njshaw2 wrote:

- Some of the culture card powers were super-powerful in our game. The one allowing you to treat all rolled 6s as any number was uber-powerful at times; if you rolled all 6s, you'd guarantee immediately winning a good track. The one allowing advancing up track 1 or 3 one step didn't feel too powerful, but if you had 2 of them AND the wild-6s AND the 'change a 5 to a 2' then you could almost complete all 3 good track in a single turn. Felt too powerful in combination.

Cards cannot be played in combination. Only one culture card can be played per turn. So the player with more culture cards has more options, but not more actions.

I will change the rules so that Culture Card Power will be its own step:

"After placing any 6s rolled aside, you may play one face-up culture card you own. Flip this card face down after playing. You cannot play it again until it is refreshed."

Military Cards will be changed to read, "Do not allocate any of your dice."

-------

Also, your opponent should have been giving you a card each time he locked the Alliance track, so you shouldn't have been too far behind unless you were locking all of the Decline tracks
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Nick Shaw
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Ah, thanks Mike, one power per turn would have made a big difference I think!

As to the second point, he was giving me a tile, but I would then lose 1 or 2 tiles for the disaster tracks so I wasn't ever gaining on his lead.
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Eric Miller
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Mike- played another solo game today:

Went pretty well. I think I actually ended up losing... It seems the "scoring" part isn't in the set of rules I have. It's V0804 that I'm looking at.

I counted culture cards- the two bots ended up with some wonders and military. Some of those I wasn't quite sure how to count...

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I included any kind of bonus for me- I had two culture cards that fit my Spartan identity. If it was a +1 bonus, that would have been enough to give me the win.

For reference, here's what the start of Turn 5 looked like:



Had only two things that really threw me...

1. The solo table. "Advance once in the unmarked space." Does that mean they leapfrog over one/two cubes? I played that it did. But a few times, when the second bot got the same result, I put bot #2 into the next track: Red is bot #1- advances once in track 1. Blue is bot #2 and gets the same result. Advance to next spot in track 1, or advance on track 2?

The only other item is the empty spaces at the top of the table for low rolls with several tracks locked. What do I do if I roll a 2 with 4 tracks locked? I played that bot just moved up one space on the first (or only) available track.

And when a bot rolled to move on a locked track, I just skipped them. Yes?

2. The first decline card was Natural Disaster. I took track 4 on that turn. I had no wonder. I just played like nothing happened. Yes?

Suggestions:

-->Make a foldable "helper" card. Put the quick reference on one side, and the solo table on the back. Those can then be removed from the rules so you can add maybe an example of a turn (or two) and greater clarity on scoring.

-->Bot personalities. (This one is a stretch.) The table works (maybe better with some tweaking) but what if there were some cards of the same size as the advance and decline cards...

These cards would have a 6x6 grid on one side, and special rules on the other. The grid would have the player roll 2d6 and chart the result (might need a "bot" die of a different color) to see which tracks move. Much like you have now.

BUT... some of the bots would advance the player's cube...

(Okay, scratch some of that...)

What if you have two separate d6 tables. One if there are 0,1,2 tracks locked, the second if there 3 or 4 tracks locked.... Should be simpler than a 36 square grid... Or they could be separated by WHICH tracks are locked... That could play into a "personality" of the bots. Since the bots are a "team," maybe an option would be to move back one of the other bot's markers...

If there are several "personalities" to choose from, I could play 2 player, or up to 4 player...

And yes, this would then free up the back of the helper card to put the solo rules on in place of the table. Still frees up space in the rules.

And that's probably enough to think on for a bit...
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Philip Tootill
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
I read over the rules to your game, and I really like the idea. I'll try and print it out and play it soon, but there were a few thoughts I had on the rulebook, regarding where I tripped up and how I got confused while reading it. They're pretty minor things, but could be worth looking at.

Firstly, the 'How to Win' section could possibly introduce ideas more clearly. It's a little bit too specific on things that haven't been introduced yet. To give a better first impression, I'd remove a bit of the detail here, and just say 'you're trying to collect these things!'. Give the details later, once the reader knows what the components are.

Also, I think there's a little bit too much information in the 'phase 1' section. When I first started reading, I expected this to be a really complex phase, but it's actually very short. Ideally, this section would deal only with the round setup (and as an aside, 'draw cards' suggests to me each player getting cards to their own hand- maybe change the name to 'setup' or something?).

I think section 2 would be a better place to put the dice track explanation. Generally, I would consider adding a bit more structure to the section. It's all explained well, but I had to read the section a few times to get everything. As an example, you refer to 'locking a track' as a strategic sidenote in the fourth paragraph, but only explain the idea of locking the track two paragraphs later. The strategic detail is nice, but should probably come later. In addition, I'd consider adding a sentence about what happens when you lock a track, even if it just says 'the player gets something, see next section'.

Possibly, you might be putting too much emphasis on the fact that players take multiple turns in phase 2? It's pretty clear from the explanation of how the round only ends when all five tracks are locked. It might only save you a few lines, but in a rulebook this short, everything helps.
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Martin Worrall
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi Mike

We've had a few play tests of your Aegean Civ Game and thought we would pass on a few thoughts.

It's always nice to see any historical power building game with a bit of randomness, Alliances, and card collecting.

The dice mechanic of filling up tracks is very nice and does offer some subtle tactics when placing them. Play the odds or push your luck!

If player one has rolled say two 1's and therefore places a cube two spaces along the track and then player 2 rolls a single 1, I assume he places his cube on space 1 and not start by leapfrogging straight to space 3?

The culture card powers seem a little repetitive, I feel there could be more variation. If you use one, flip it over and then flip it back to face side up after you have passed the dice along (as we played) then every turn there was a series of 'Pass your Turn' so turns went round the table a couple of times with nothing happening usually ending back where it started. I would have thought using a Culture card power once until the Refresh would be better. (Did we read the rules wrong here?)

Dice number 1 obviously has the best reward and yet Labor Specialization relies on there being discard. What if there is no discard as happen in our game? We just took one of the Culture cards anyway which is the same as the Three line. Same for Expansion, isn't this reward the same as for the Three line?
Trade Routes relies on the player holding a culture card which may not be the case.
If for Cultural Diffusion a 'Pass this Turn' is chosen can't everyone just keep choosing this one ending in a kind of Stalemate?
Conquer again relies on you having a certain card which may not be the case.
The idea for 'ones' giving the greater reward is good as it keeps the tension but these rewards do seem conditional. Is it mean't to be like this and is it part of the game?

In the games we played we wondered why the player with the least Culture cards goes first. Placing cubes on tracks is reactionary. You can place them in a more strategic fashion when you know what your opponents have done. Therefore we found that who places cubes last (4 player game)had the advantage, they had more information with which to place cubes accordingly. The player with the least cards was the same every round in 3 games and never made progress.
If this mechanic is done to try to balance things up a little then perhaps the player to the left of the least number of culture cards should go first. Then the player with the least can react better with their dice rolls and should pick up more culture cards along the way. (Hope that makes sense!)

Final game scoring was initially a little confusing. Perhaps you can give a picture example of the points for different types of cards and bonus's. (A picture paints a thousand words!)

One other small point, there are a lot (over 20) of 'He, himself and His' references in the rules. Sure, most players will be male but not all. (Our group is 2 male and 2 female.) Perhaps a more gender neutral word or phrases may be better.

Overall, it's an interesting game with a nice theme and dice placement mechanic and we will play it again, but we feel there could be a bit more creativity in the Culture and Progress cards and the scoring just needs a little clarifying.

Hope all that helps.

Martin W










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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi Eric,
Thanks as always for playing my games. Here are a few responses to questions you posed and to clear up some confusion:

1. The solo table. "Advance once in the unmarked space." Does that mean they leapfrog over one/two cubes? I played that it did. But a few times, when the second bot got the same result, I put bot #2 into the next track: Red is bot #1- advances once in track 1. Blue is bot #2 and gets the same result. Advance to next spot in track 1, or advance on track 2?
They leapfrog over the one/two cubes on the lowest unlocked track. Blue Bot should have advanced again in track 1 (unless track 1 is locked).

2. The first decline card was Natural Disaster. I took track 4 on that turn. I had no wonder. I just played like nothing happened. Yes?
Nothing happens. There will be a few instances with Progress and Decline Cards where this is the case.

I like the idea of personalities, but that requires a bit more creating and playtesting to balance. I guess if Athens' power seems OP, I could just put the tag "Difficult" on the card.
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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi Phil,
Thanks for reading over the rules. Your recommendations have been valuable in the latest version I just put up.

Here are some things that have changed, with your help:

Firstly, the 'How to Win' section could possibly introduce ideas more clearly. It's a little bit too specific on things that haven't been introduced yet.
Done!

I think there's a little bit too much information in the 'phase 1' section.
This Phase is now called "Phase 1 Setup" and is now broken down into smaller digestible parts.

I think section 2 would be a better place to put the dice track explanation. Generally, I would consider adding a bit more structure to the section
.
Similar to Phase 1, I have broken this phase down into smaller chunks. I also added a Culture Card Power part of the phase (optional).
 
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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi Martin,
Thanks for playing. There were some key elements that you missed. I likely didn't explain it clearly enough in the previous version of the rules, but I made sure to highlight it in the version I just uploaded.

If player one has rolled say two 1's and therefore places a cube two spaces along the track and then player 2 rolls a single 1, I assume he places his cube on space 1 and not start by leapfrogging straight to space 3?
His cube still begins at the first empty space on that track, but since it cannot occupy the same space as another, it will jump over 1,2,or 3 opponent cubes as it advances. It isn't always best being in first

The culture card powers seem a little repetitive, I feel there could be more variation. If you use one, flip it over and then flip it back to face side up after you have passed the dice...
You do NOT flip the card up after passing the dice. You only flip the cards back up at the end of Phase 4. If you have to pass the dice, then Phase 2 has not yet ended.
I would have thought using a Culture card power once until the Refresh would be better.
Yes, that's the intent. Hopefully the new version makes that more clear.

Dice number 1 obviously has the best reward and yet Labor Specialization relies on there being discard. What if there is no discard as happen in our game?...The idea for 'ones' giving the greater reward is good as it keeps the tension but these rewards do seem conditional. Is it mean't to be like this and is it part of the game?
There will be a few instances (either at Round 1 or Round 6) where the Progress or Decline effects will be unobtainable. Yours was one case of this.

If for Cultural Diffusion a 'Pass this Turn' is chosen can't everyone just keep choosing this one ending in a kind of Stalemate?
No. The first player that uses it flips the card. That card cannot be used again until the Refresh Phase (which happens at the end of the round, not the end of a turn).

One other small point, there are a lot (over 20) of 'He, himself and His' references in the rules. Sure, most players will be male but not all. (Our group is 2 male and 2 female.) Perhaps a more gender neutral word or phrases may be better.
As an English major, I am well aware of this. However, it gets confusing when mixing genders with discrete pronouns, and calling a player "it" is clunky as well. In the next version, I might just make all of the players female and give a scenario right at the beginning with names. whistle

In the games we played we wondered why the player with the least Culture cards goes first. Placing cubes on tracks is reactionary. You can place them in a more strategic fashion when you know what your opponents have done.
This is a "six of one, half dozen of another" approach. Placing is often reactionary, but it's more likely that Player 1 will get an extra turn. It's also possible to lock a track on the first roll, so let's give that opportunity to the person farthest behind. Also, the Alliance reward (track 2) will often help the farthest person behind catch up.

Overall, it's an interesting game with a nice theme and dice placement mechanic and we will play it again, but we feel there could be a bit more creativity in the Culture and Progress cards and the scoring just needs a little clarifying.
Hope all that helps.

Extremely helpful Martin!
I hope that this post clears up some of the confusion and that you get a chance to try again.



 
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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
V0924 is Uploaded.

Culture Card Power has it's own sub-turn (where Culture Powers are played, once per turn)

Military Cards now let you decide whether you want to pass or not AFTER seeing what you've rolled.

Cleaned up some of the rules so it reads better.
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Martin Worrall
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi Mike

Thanks for answering all the questions and points. It's cleared things up a lot. I'll look forward to playing it again.

Martin
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Stefano Molinari
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hello

I have played in solo mode the multiplayer version of this game. It is a nice game and I enjoyed it.

Here are few thoughts.

1) Am I correct to say that Phase 2 ends immediately when the final Black Die is reached on both the Progress and the Decline cards? (maybe it is worth to state this in the rules)

2) Actually the starting player for each Turn is the one with the least number of culture cards. I would do the opposite, the first player should be chosen such that the player with the least cards is the last one. Why? because of the leapfrog game mechanic which makes the last of three players to have some advantage as his cube can jump over and skip the others cubes.

3) I would like to have just a little more "decisions" to be taken, maybe you could add the feature that any couple of dice (showing same numbers) may be used to attempt to steal a card from an opponent: both players roll a die and the higher wins. If the defender wins nothing happens, if the attacker wins the card is stolen, in case of a tie the player with most Military Cards wins. This would add interaction between players and would also give a chance to change unbalanced situations where one player is starting strong and therefore finishing as winner. This is just a small advice.

As soon as I have few time I try the "solo" variant!

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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Thanks for playing Stefano and more thanks for responding. I'm changing a rule you suggested in #2 because of your response.

-----

1) Am I correct to say that Phase 2 ends immediately when the final Black Die is reached on both the Progress and the Decline cards?
Yes. Once all tracks are locked (on both cards) phase 2 ends.

2) Actually the starting player for each Turn is the one with the least number of culture cards. I would do the opposite, the first player should be chosen such that the player with the least cards is the last one.
You are not the first to suggest this. So in the next version, I will change it so it starts with whomever has the most Culture Cards. Until I update a new version, feel free to use this rule as an addendum.

3) I would like to have just a little more "decisions" to be taken, maybe you could add the feature that any couple of dice (showing same numbers) may be used to attempt to steal a card from an opponent:
That's an interesting concept, but it would add time to the game and space needed in the rules to implement. As of now, I want to home the rules of what I have instead of introducing new rules. I'll keep your suggestion in mind though.
 
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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
V0926 is Uploaded.

*Player with the most Culture Cards begins phase 2.

Enjoy!
MH
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Alex Bardy
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready

Hi Mike,

Thanks for this design, which I liked the overall look of.

We played two games of this (both with 4 players), and it now looks like we may have played it wrong because we played it that each new dice roll goes one step further along the track for that number, regardless of who was there first. For example, if red was on the 3rd space on Track 1, and blue allocated a 1 we put him on the 4th space automatically -- he didn't have to start from the first space along that track.

This may have inadvertently speeded up the game, but I'm not sure if it would've changed things tactically...

The main problem we ran into was a 'runaway leader' problem - at one point I had loads of military cards, so was able to avoid allocating dice each time. Meanwhile, the two players that were way behind and had only one Culture card (with no useful ability), couldn't manipulate their rolls to avoid topping the Decline tracks, so they ended up losing most of the rounds and consequently, their Culture Cards each turn, thus punishing them twice over.

One option may be to limit players to only two Culture Card actions per round - the other player that was doing well (and actually won by a ridiculous 14-1-0-0 margin) had so many Culture Cards he could use that he was buried with options each turn, and could manipulate the dice any way he wanted.

Also, we were a little confused by the cards that had 3 symbols on them - we counted each symbol as 1 towards the 'lose a Culture Card unless you have the most helmet/acropolis/whatever symbols' - the winning player had the most of everything and thus was untouchable, really.

The over-riding problem we had (or that showed up in both games), is that the players with an early 'lead' in Culture Cards, got more options to play with their dice each time...

Otherwise, I personally quite enjoyed it, but am wondering how you could try and mitigate or balance things so that the player(s) trailing (ie. those without any Culture Cards), could gain something at the start of each turn...? Would it be worth introducing some free-standing 1-pt culture markers, so the player with the least Culture at the start of each round (or joint least Culture), automatically gains 1 generic culture point?

Thanks again for the design, and hope this helps?

( My football/soccer game is here if anyone wants to try it: Minty's FOOTBALL GAME )


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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Thanks for the playtest and feedback. Here are some responses to your questions and feedback:

we may have played it wrong because we played it that each new dice roll goes one step further along the track for that number, regardless of who was there first.
Each player still starts at the first die (unless occupied) and only skips spots that are already occupied. I don't think they would have been quite the "runaway" games if you used this.

The main problem we ran into was a 'runaway leader' problem - at one point I had loads of military cards, so was able to avoid allocating dice each time. Meanwhile, the two players that were way behind and had only one Culture card (with no useful ability), couldn't manipulate their rolls to avoid topping the Decline tracks, so they ended up losing most of the rounds and consequently, their Culture Cards each turn, thus punishing them twice over.
We played 4 more games and two of them resulted in runaway leads. We thought about how to change it. SO in the next version, only Military cards will allow special powers. However, military cards will be worth no Culture Points (Military Wonder is removed). Also, the 4 on the Decline Card can be avoided if you have only one of the specified card. That should create another level of strategy where the players decide "Do I want that military card which can alter my dice? Or do I want that Civics card that will give me points to win the game?"

...we were a little confused by the cards that had 3 symbols on them
The two smaller symbols are just quick reference for which City-state gets a bonus point for owning it. Other players might be able to deduct which City-state you're playing and try to block you from collect more of your kind later in the game.

Thanks again for the design, and hope this helps?
Absolutely! Thanks again for playing.

 
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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
V0930 is Uploaded.

4 more playtested games went into this to balance and prevent the winner snowball effect.

*Military cards are worth no Culture Points, but each Military Card has a unique Culture Power to use during phase 2.

*Civics, Government, Invention, and Philosophy cards no longer have Culture Powers. They are only worth Culture Points, but also can more easily defend against Decline effects now as well.

Enjoy!
MH
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Claud
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi Mike,
the game is very nice, liked a lot.

I try to place a constructive critic, even if I obviously understand that the game is already in an advanced state and it is well play tested.

I was thinking about the rule redarding the 6 result, I did not dislike it but I felt a feeling of "uncompleteness". An alternative rule might be that when you rule a 6 you are obliged to advance one track in the progress card AND one track in the decline card. I think this modification can add some more strategic option w.r.t the re-roll option. In addition it will speed up the game a bit.

I loved all the rest!



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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Aegean Civ now has a couple of videos.
Unfortunately, both are in potato-vision until I get to a good WiFi signal.

The first shows the unpacking and game setup.
The second shows the first round of play.

I am not a videographer, so get some icecream and bear with me if you view these. I hope they are helpful.
MH

Introduction and game setup


Round 1
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Stefano Molinari
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Hi, you need to use the "Youtube Video Id" and not the whole link you usually share with others...I got the same issue as I did the same mistake for my game Galaxy Explorer
 
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mike heim
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Re: [WIP] Aegean Civ [2017 Mint Tin Design Contest] Component Ready
Thanks Stefano. I think I fixed it.
btw...love Galaxy Explorer!
 
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mike heim
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Contest Ready!

Minor changes in the rulebook:

Alternate He/She pronouns to implicitly and explicitly include both genders.
Minor grammar corrections and presentation arrangements.
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Alex Cannon
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Hi Mike, looks like an interesting game. I thought your video was really well done.

Have you tried playing where the cubes can stack? With the leap-frog ability it seems that turn order is a really important factor.

I'd also be interested to see what would happen if you advance 4s or 5s any time they are rolled, and not just when they are all that's left. This would make re-rolls a bit riskier!
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Tom Coldron
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In the mint-tin contest voting, this was my number 1 pick for best overall design. I thought it was really impressive.
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