Stephen Ebrey
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One of these secret objectives says 'Gain 2 faction technologies. Valefar Assimilator technologies do not count'. Does that just mean that Valefar Assimilator does not count at the beginning, before they copy the text of other faction techs, or is literally impossible for the Nekro Virus player to score that secret objective? Did TI 3 have any secret objectives that were impossible for a certain race to score?
 
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Brian Petersen
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I would rule that it counts when they have placed both the X and Y tokens.

In TI3, there were no objectives that were impossible for a race to score. However, it was impossible for players to use Saar to claim several objectives regarding blockading space docks and destroying space docks on planets.

Even if ruling that they can score this objective, they are still stuck waiting for other players to research racial technologies/unit upgrades that don't upgrade the same unit.
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stephen986 wrote:
One of these secret objectives says 'Gain 2 faction technologies. Valefar Assimilator technologies do not count'. Does that just mean that Valefar Assimilator does not count at the beginning, before they copy the text of other faction techs, or is literally impossible for the Nekro Virus player to score that secret objective? Did TI 3 have any secret objectives that were impossible for a certain race to score?

Since Nekro technically start with their Valefar Assimilators, the objective excludes them so they don't count. When they USE Valefar Assimilators to copy another faction technology of another faction, they gain that other faction's technology. So if they've used both their Valefar Assimilator's, they now have gained 2 faction technologies.
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Clayton Threadgill
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I would actually rule against.
Secret Objective wrote:
Adapt New Strategies
Status Phase
Own 2 faction technologies. "Valefar Assimilator" technologies do not count toward this objective.
1 Victory Point

And:
Nekro Racial Technology wrote:
Valefar Assimilator X
When you would gain another player's technology using 1 of your faction abilities, you may place the "X" assimilator token on a faction technology owned by that player instead. While that token is on a technology, this card gains that technologies text. You cannot place an assimilator token on technology that already has an assimilator token.

Valefar doesn't give you the technology, it only gains the text. It doesn't even copy the title of its target, so even after you use the ability it still doesn't count towards the objective.

Fortunately, secret objectives aren't as locked-in as they were in TI4. If the Nekro player does get this one during the game, they can drop it when they draw their 4th.
 
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I am pretty certain it will be ruled that copying a faction tech is equivalent to gaining the technology. It's almost certainly the intent of it. I don't buy that there would be any objectives that a specific race is barred from scoring. Can you find any other examples of an objective where a race would be barred from ever scoring it?

I would argue that gaining the technology's tech is also gaining it's title, which would make it the other tech IN ADDITION TO the title "Valefar Assimilator". We know that gaining the text means more than just abilities, since you can copy unit upgrades, and that is more than just copying their keywords but also their stats. IE, copying the card is copying the WHOLE card.
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Clayton Threadgill
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I agree that it would seem to be against the intended design, so it may just be that one of the cards involved is poorly worded. Either way, it's a good question for the FAQ thread.
 
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hooliganj wrote:
I agree that it would seem to be against the intended design, so it may just be that one of the cards involved is poorly worded. Either way, it's a good question for the FAQ thread.

Definitely couldn't hurt to have it there

I would further argue if the intent was to prevent Nekro from scoring that objective altogether, instead of referencing Valefar Assimilator it would have just said "Nekro Virus cannot score this objective".
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I would further argue if the intent was to prevent Nekro from scoring that objective altogether, instead of referencing Valefar Assimilator it would have just said "Nekro Virus cannot score this objective".

That would preclude future expansions where the Nekro get 2 racial techs they don't automatically have at the start the game. TI4 was built to be modular and expandable, after all.
 
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hooliganj wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
I would further argue if the intent was to prevent Nekro from scoring that objective altogether, instead of referencing Valefar Assimilator it would have just said "Nekro Virus cannot score this objective".

That would preclude future expansions where the Nekro get 2 racial techs they don't automatically have at the start the game. TI4 was built to be modular and expandable, after all.

Since Nekro can't research techs, I don't know how they'd do a faction technology that they can acquire later like that without redoing the faction itself.
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sigmazero13 wrote:
hooliganj wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
I would further argue if the intent was to prevent Nekro from scoring that objective altogether, instead of referencing Valefar Assimilator it would have just said "Nekro Virus cannot score this objective".

That would preclude future expansions where the Nekro get 2 racial techs they don't automatically have at the start the game. TI4 was built to be modular and expandable, after all.

Since Nekro can't research techs, I don't know how they'd do a faction technology that they can acquire later like that without redoing the faction itself.


The only way would be to use the action card which negates your racial abilities for that game round (if it exists in TI4) and then using technology strategy card to buy the racial technologies. Still, common sense would rule that Nekro would have to copy 2 racial techs to complete this objective. Otherwise they would have to pick the 8th strategy card to swap secret objectives.
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Sande24 wrote:
The only way would be to use the action card which negates your racial abilities for that game round (if it exists in TI4) and then using technology strategy card to buy the racial technologies. Still, common sense would rule that Nekro would have to copy 2 racial techs to complete this objective. Otherwise they would have to pick the 8th strategy card to swap secret objectives.

Everyone should be aiming to get (or at least use) the 8th strategy card at some point in the game at least once, ideally twice, possibly more. Since you can score 3 secret objectives, that's access to more potential VPs.

Also, at the start of the game each player gets 2 secret objectives and chooses 1 to keep. If the Nekro is dealt this one, obviously they'll want to discard it straight away.

As for future technologies, they could always put the method on the card. "When you would gain a technology using 1 of your Racial Abilities, you may gain this technology instead." There could also be some new method introduced to gain technology without researching. Their Galactic Threat racial ability is already a nod in that direction.
 
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hooliganj wrote:
Also, at the start of the game each player gets 2 secret objectives and chooses 1 to keep. If the Nekro is dealt this one, obviously they'll want to discard it straight away.

Again, though, I don't think it was the intent to have any objective unachievable by a faction simply because of which faction they are. Just because there's the option to discard it doesn't mean that it's the way it's supposed to work. It would mean that if Nekro take the #8 card, there's a very real chance that it was a complete waste of time for them, something no other faction would have to deal with. Even "difficult" objectives are very different than "outright impossible" ones.

To me, it looks clearly like the intent of copying the text of the tech is that it is equivalent of gaining that technology. However you want to think of that is up to the person, but when it copies the tech, it makes sense to me that it also copies the name, if it really came down to that.
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Stephen Ebrey
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hooliganj wrote:

Also, at the start of the game each player gets 2 secret objectives and chooses 1 to keep. If the Nekro is dealt this one, obviously they'll want to discard it straight away.


I got it at the start of the game and chose to keep it, because my other secret objective looked very difficult, and I figured there was no way they would make a secret objective that one race cannot complete. If there's an official FAQ that says Nekro can't do this objective then at least I'll know to discard it in the future, but personally I hope they will rule that Nekro can complete it.
 
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Lou Lessing
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I'd definitely play that they can complete it by using both assimilators. I think it's pretty clear as-written that they can't, so I'd think of it as a house rule, but it definitely doesn't seem fair for it to just be impossible for them, even if they can replace it.
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brisingre wrote:
I think it's pretty clear as-written that they can't, so I'd think of it as a house rule [...]

In my opinion it does not even need a house rule, as in this context I would interpret the word "gain" on a VA card as "replace". See here.

It may not be a commonly shared opinion, but that is the way I see it. At least until it is clarified in FAQ.
 
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bogzal wrote:
brisingre wrote:
I think it's pretty clear as-written that they can't, so I'd think of it as a house rule [...]

In my opinion it does not even need a house rule, as in this context I would interpret the word "gain" on a VA card as "replace". See here.

It may not be a commonly shared opinion, but that is the way I see it. At least until it is clarified in FAQ.

Whether or not it's a commonly shared opinion, it's a personal interpretation of the text. Until there's an official ruling, it's a house ruling.

Personally, I disagree. I've never used the word "gain" to imply "replace", and I've never heard it used that way. Based on the assumption that the designers and producers of the game speak standard English, I choose to interpret the text based on the actual definitions of the words used.
 
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hooliganj wrote:
bogzal wrote:
brisingre wrote:
I think it's pretty clear as-written that they can't, so I'd think of it as a house rule [...]

In my opinion it does not even need a house rule, as in this context I would interpret the word "gain" on a VA card as "replace". See here.

It may not be a commonly shared opinion, but that is the way I see it. At least until it is clarified in FAQ.

Whether or not it's a commonly shared opinion, it's a personal interpretation of the text. Until there's an official ruling, it's a house ruling.

I would argue that either interpretation is valid until there is an official ruling.

It gains the title of the new tech as well, which as far as I'm concerned means it's now both "Valefar Assimilator" and the copied tech. This is supported by the rules as written as well, just a different interpretation.

However, I do agree it definitely doesn't REPLACE the text at all, because if it replaced the text, then you would NOT be allowed to use it again to copy a different tech later, and the rules do allow for that, at least for Unit Upgrade techs (which may perhaps be meant to extend to all techs).

Basically, the way I interpret the rules as written, when Valefar Assimilator gains the text of the new tech, it gains everything on the card - unit stats, title, color, etc. As such, it counts as a "new tech" as well as retaining it's old stuff - it has gained both.
 
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Stephen Ebrey
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Hey guys, just got a response from FFG:
"The intent was that after placing an assimilator token on another faction’s faction specific technology, it would then count toward the secret objective. This should be clarified in a future FAQ. The same intent is true for if the assimilator token is placed on a tech with a color—it would count toward the relevant secret objectives."
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KR P
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In the current FAQ (v.1.1), there is no mention of this under the Nekro section.

Have they forgot to add it in?
 
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The_Law_Beckons wrote:
In the current FAQ (v.1.1), there is no mention of this under the Nekro section.

Have they forgot to add it in?

Funny story, but people apparently have so much trouble with this one paragraph of text that they gave Valefar Assimilator its own section of the rules.

79.16 VALEFAR ASSIMILATOR

And it includes this exact question.

79.22 When a Valefar Assimilator token is on a technology, that technology’s color and type count toward objectives.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The_Law_Beckons wrote:
In the current FAQ (v.1.1), there is no mention of this under the Nekro section.

Have they forgot to add it in?


Check rules 79.16 through 79.22.
 
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KR P
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Oh snap. I read that section, but that paragraph did not even register in my mind.

Thanks guys.
 
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