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Subject: Possible Unrealistic Strategy Due to Enemy Defensive Activity Hierarchy rss

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Attila Felsen
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The "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" allows this strategy: send Assault Team into card with PC; activate PC; following turn, retreat from card so activated enemy unit loses LOS; and enemy unit is removed (normally on a card that already has a PC counter or a card you cannot enter anyway).

For example in the WWII Mission 1, send 1 Assault Team into each cards across the LOD. Activate the 4 PC Cs. The next turn, if anything besides Mines, Sniper, or an FO, use color smoke (M2S) to bring back your spotted units to behind the LOD. Many enemy units will be removed. Use this strategy across the remainder rows.

Against Mines, Snipers, and FOs, just do what you normally do: don't go with other units into mines, chase snipers off the "board", and allow FOs to run out of fire missions (unless you can capture or kill).

I was in the USMC for 20yrs 9mos 3das. Although I was a Cobra pilot, I had a lot of training as a rifleman up and including to an infantry Company Commander. When in an attack, you do not want to LOS of an enemy unit. When in the defense, you normally will not leave your prepared position if you lose sight of the enemy (particularly given the time scale of this game).

I have changed the "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" to read Auto, if not under cover, attempt to seek cover; if under cover, attempt to seek better cover (e.g., strong building); if lower story, go upper story; if a unit tracks ammo, add another round upto maximum allowed by mission.

I have enjoyed many hours of playing the first 3 WWII missions. I keep finding rules that I failed to remember during critical parts of the game; therefore, my campaign has had many restarts. I am very thankful for Ben's endless hours in designing a great game.
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Bryan Felsher
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There's been a lot of discussion about this topic over the years. I wonder if a good solution is just to have a rule, "No falling back" on offensive missions.
 
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Dan Keeler
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I think the easiest solution to this problem is that if you vacate a card that is under enemy VOF, put a new PC marker on the vacated card. Based on other forum discussions on "retreat sleaze", I believe it is supposed to work this way, but I can't find the rule reference for it.

 
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Ricky Gray
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Thinking out loud here:

Turn 1:
Assault team advances from each staging area card into row 1.
PCs are resolved later

Turn 2:
A-teams that are able/alive retreat back to staging area.
Some enemy units disappear (assuming at least one team was pinned/hit and so stays put)

Turn 3:
Assault teams from staging area to Row 1.

Turn 4:
Assault teams from row 1 to Row 2.
PCs resolved later

Turn 5:
A-teams that are able/alive retreat back to Row 1
Some enemies disappear . . .

This could only be successful if everything went absolutely perfectly. High command draws, extreme luck on combat draws, etc. All it takes is for a single Assault team to get hit and be unable to make its "retreat move" on the next turn, and the whole thing blows up. Sounds good in theory, but one non-lucky draw and it all falls apart.

I'd like to hear an AAR from someone who tries this. Seriously.

Good discussion, btw!

Best,
Ricky
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Pelle Nilsson
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danberniekeeler wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is that if you vacate a card that is under enemy VOF, put a new PC marker on the vacated card. Based on other forum discussions on "retreat sleaze", I believe it is supposed to work this way, but I can't find the rule reference for it.



I also have some vague memory of this, that it was either an official ruling/errata or that someone manages to find something in the printed (v1) rulebook that actually said you placed a new PC? Or do I confuse it with something similar?
 
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Ricky Gray
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Something else to consider is that all those Assault teams that are being pushed forward will have to rely on General Initiative in order to even be able to retreat back (assuming they are move-capable after initial contact). This is because they will not be carrying the radios/phones. And that is just on the first turn. Beyond that, they will need General Initiative both to advance AND to retreat. Unless, that is, the player brings in behind them the rest of the Company (or at least the command assets). But that takes even more commands.

Also, what happens when open ground-type terrain cards begin to appear? That screws up everything as well.

I know this won't work practically. I'm beginning to think it fails theoretically as well.

Best,
Ricky
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William Jason Raynovich
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pelni wrote:
danberniekeeler wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is that if you vacate a card that is under enemy VOF, put a new PC marker on the vacated card. Based on other forum discussions on "retreat sleaze", I believe it is supposed to work this way, but I can't find the rule reference for it.



I also have some vague memory of this, that it was either an official ruling/errata or that someone manages to find something in the printed (v1) rulebook that actually said you placed a new PC? Or do I confuse it with something similar?


On the Enemy Activity Check Hierarchies Chart under "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" it states Auto: Remove Unit; Place PC Marker. I assume this is a random "?" Also, it does not state where to put the marker. If it goes where the original marker was placed then that is fine. If the marker goes where the unit currently is then most of the time I bet the marker will disappear and if it is on a card that the US forces cannot get to then the US forces will not get the experience points.

The part of this that I do not like or cannot find a story line to buy into is an example of a Pillbox defender that is briefly encountered. I would think that an HMG nest in a Pillbox or for that matter a MG nest in any cover would not leave cover with ammo left unless everyone around them routed as well. And for a unit in a Pillbox to disappear with little engagement seems wrong.

However, a squad that is merely in a foxhole I could see leaving the foxhole. Maybe to attack? Maybe to shift to another location.

 
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David Murray
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I too was a little bothered by the disappearance of static defences - I wrote a house rule that is in the files section to cover such circumstances;

https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download/t4ah1o45tl/Fields_of..._–_Enemy_Defensive_Activity_Hierarchy_–_replaces_entry_on_the_chart.pdf
 
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Antonio B-D
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And this were you are failing to see the big picture. What it is for you a crucial place (a card in your rout to the main objective) could be just a delaying post for the enemy. In reality you don't know. So maybe there was a bunker with a MG an hour ago, but the guys there were ordered to avoid conflict. Maybe they were short on ammo. Maybe they were afraid that the US troops that had spotted them might flank them and had moved to a different position. Maybe what your tired and scared soldiers thought it was a bunker full of MG was in reality a squad hidden in a pig's den but because they were shot to pieces so quickly they thought it was a MG.

The rationalization ware endless. What you are aiming for (full knowledge and lack of variability in the situation) is exactly what this games fights against. Weird stuff happens and that is infinitely more historically accurate than things remaining static.

You might not like what the game tries to do, and that is fine, but I think you will be at least more satisfied with the experience if you understand the rationale behind the game decisions.
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David Murray
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I agree with Antonio's points, one of the best aspects of the game is the 'fog of war' it creates. It does this better than any other boardgames I have played - the 'grunts' on the ground see only what is in front of them.

That said I keep static defences in position and use the house rule I posted above as I like the challenge of working out how to neutralise them. The great thing about solo games is you can do what you like
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David Janik-Jones
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danberniekeeler wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is that if you vacate a card that is under enemy VOF, put a new PC marker on the vacated card. Based on other forum discussions on "retreat sleaze", I believe it is supposed to work this way, but I can't find the rule reference for it.


Ben Hull clarified this a while back, I just can't find the specific quote and thread at the moment. You put the PC marker on the vacated card. You can't just run up, remove a PC marker, then run back. The next time you advance onto that card, the chance for an encounter exists again.

Found the discussion ... here
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Dan Keeler
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raynovich wrote:
pelni wrote:
danberniekeeler wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is that if you vacate a card that is under enemy VOF, put a new PC marker on the vacated card. Based on other forum discussions on "retreat sleaze", I believe it is supposed to work this way, but I can't find the rule reference for it.



I also have some vague memory of this, that it was either an official ruling/errata or that someone manages to find something in the printed (v1) rulebook that actually said you placed a new PC? Or do I confuse it with something similar?


On the Enemy Activity Check Hierarchies Chart under "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" it states Auto: Remove Unit; Place PC Marker. I assume this is a random "?" Also, it does not state where to put the marker. If it goes where the original marker was placed then that is fine.


Ah-Hah!! It's it is in the chart you referenced. No wonder I couldn't find it in the rules. The PC marker is supposed to go back on the card that had the original PC marker that created the enemy unit -- not on the card where the enemy unit is. So if you withdraw from that 1st row card and leave the enemy unit with nothing in LOS, the PC marker will be replaced on the card you just vacated. For letter of PC marker, go with the original setup.
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William Jason Raynovich
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abendoso wrote:
And this were you are failing to see the big picture. What it is for you a crucial place (a card in your rout to the main objective) could be just a delaying post for the enemy. In reality you don't know. So maybe there was a bunker with a MG an hour ago, but the guys there were ordered to avoid conflict. Maybe they were short on ammo. Maybe they were afraid that the US troops that had spotted them might flank them and had moved to a different position. Maybe what your tired and scared soldiers thought it was a bunker full of MG was in reality a squad hidden in a pig's den but because they were shot to pieces so quickly they thought it was a MG.

The rationalization ware endless. What you are aiming for (full knowledge and lack of variability in the situation) is exactly what this games fights against. Weird stuff happens and that is infinitely more historically accurate than things remaining static.

You might not like what the game tries to do, and that is fine, but I think you will be at least more satisfied with the experience if you understand the rationale behind the game decisions.


I understand your explanation. There is one crucial part that I disagree with. That is that the player can "game" the system and "know" what is going to happen. That is where the problem with the current rules as written are. If there was a chance of leaving then the player would be less inclined perhaps to do as can be done. Does that make sense?

Also, I do like Ben's explanations on consimworld. It does not make sense for a Pillbox HMG unit to disappear with a tactic that the US forces would do NOT because of good strategy but to just get rid of a more difficult force.
 
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William Jason Raynovich
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danberniekeeler wrote:
raynovich wrote:
pelni wrote:
danberniekeeler wrote:
I think the easiest solution to this problem is that if you vacate a card that is under enemy VOF, put a new PC marker on the vacated card. Based on other forum discussions on "retreat sleaze", I believe it is supposed to work this way, but I can't find the rule reference for it.



I also have some vague memory of this, that it was either an official ruling/errata or that someone manages to find something in the printed (v1) rulebook that actually said you placed a new PC? Or do I confuse it with something similar?


On the Enemy Activity Check Hierarchies Chart under "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" it states Auto: Remove Unit; Place PC Marker. I assume this is a random "?" Also, it does not state where to put the marker. If it goes where the original marker was placed then that is fine.


Ah-Hah!! It's it is in the chart you referenced. No wonder I couldn't find it in the rules. The PC marker is supposed to go back on the card that had the original PC marker that created the enemy unit -- not on the card where the enemy unit is. So if you withdraw from that 1st row card and leave the enemy unit with nothing in LOS, the PC marker will be replaced on the card you just vacated. For letter of PC marker, go with the original setup.


I would also add, personally, if the fire went through another card with a PC Marker, that card would add a PC marker as well.

 
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