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Subject: Thread locking in a community forum rss

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Dave
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I restarted the thread in the rainbow forums. Let's continue the discussion there, moving this topic here is a slap in the face.
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natureslayer wrote:
Octavian wrote:
natureslayer wrote:
We don't even get to have a say in how our own community that you forced us into is run.


The Community forums, including Rainbow BGGers, are BGG forums and are run by BGG. That said, no one is forced into using them. It's an option some people will enjoy using and others won't. Do what best fits your needs.


"If you don't like it, fuck off." shakeshakeshake

He didn't swear though, so it's not a rules violation!
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Matthew M
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ScoobyG wrote:

Yes. That was the whole point of creating that community in the first place. That we don't have to have those discussions all over again, every single time. There's a reason I started the thread there, as opposed to the cthulhu wars thread itself.


And it was a good thread too. I'd been following it since your first post. I wasn't happy to come online this morning to see how things developed.

I would not have locked the thread if I thought there was a chance of it continuing to be a worthwhile discussion, but the crosslink from the locked Cthulhu Wars thread pretty much doomed that possibility.

The original topic is still worthwhile. I'd support seeing a new thread started to continue the discussion.
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Pete
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Octavian wrote:
natureslayer wrote:
The whole point of creating the Rainbow BGGers was because the admins acceded to the request of all the "anti-SJW"s that we silo off our own concerns into a forum that is hard to find and barely discoverable.


Also...what? That was not the point at all. Is that a commonly held view among other members of the Rainbow BGGers community?
I was there for the discussions and it absolutely did not go down that way. In fact, all the "anti-SJWs" were arguing against the formation of the new thread as unnecessary.

Pete (didn't participate much but read that thread in its entirety)
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plezercruz wrote:
Octavian wrote:
natureslayer wrote:
The whole point of creating the Rainbow BGGers was because the admins acceded to the request of all the "anti-SJW"s that we silo off our own concerns into a forum that is hard to find and barely discoverable.


Also...what? That was not the point at all. Is that a commonly held view among other members of the Rainbow BGGers community?
I was there for the discussions and it absolutely did not go down that way. In fact, all the "anti-SJWs" were arguing against the formation of the new thread as unnecessary.

That one contingent wanted us to have zero spaces to discuss these issues doesn't mean giving us only one space isn't also totally fucked up.
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Charles Boyung
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Octavian wrote:
natureslayer wrote:
The whole point of creating the Rainbow BGGers was because the admins acceded to the request of all the "anti-SJW"s that we silo off our own concerns into a forum that is hard to find and barely discoverable.


Also...what? That was not the point at all. Is that a commonly held view among other members of the Rainbow BGGers community?


Yeah, that's some pretty BS revisionist history. That forum was requested specifically by the people who wanted to use it.
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Pete
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piman wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
Octavian wrote:
natureslayer wrote:
The whole point of creating the Rainbow BGGers was because the admins acceded to the request of all the "anti-SJW"s that we silo off our own concerns into a forum that is hard to find and barely discoverable.


Also...what? That was not the point at all. Is that a commonly held view among other members of the Rainbow BGGers community?
I was there for the discussions and it absolutely did not go down that way. In fact, all the "anti-SJWs" were arguing against the formation of the new thread as unnecessary.

That one contingent wanted us to have zero spaces to discuss these issues doesn't mean giving us only one space isn't also totally fucked up.
I offer no opinion on that. You may be right, but that's not what I was commenting on.

Pete (merely contests another poster's comment on how the Rainbow BGGers forum was formed)
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Pete
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ScoobyG wrote:
I restarted the thread in the rainbow forums. Let's continue the discussion there, moving this topic here is a slap in the face.
Speaking for those of us who dwell in the complaints forum, this is exactly where these kinds of threads belong.

Pete (has some familiarity as a denizen of this place)
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Bryan Thunkd
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natureslayer wrote:
Octavian wrote:
natureslayer wrote:
The whole point of creating the Rainbow BGGers was because the admins acceded to the request of all the "anti-SJW"s that we silo off our own concerns into a forum that is hard to find and barely discoverable.


Also...what? That was not the point at all. Is that a commonly held view among other members of the Rainbow BGGers community?


Rainbow BGG was created because the lack of anti-homophobic and -misogynistic moderation in the general forums as well as the removal of many LGBT topics resulted in BGG users not feeling safe to discuss their troubles with homophobia. By not dealing with the "anti-SJWs" antagonism in a direct way and forcing the creation of a subforum where these issues can be discussed, you directly acceded to these views. Not having a full-throated defense results in a perpetuation of the status quo which unfortunately right now is rife with misogyny and homophobia. You're directly contributing to it by diminishing our concerns and reducing the visibility of minority voices.
I agree with you that there are real problems with anti-homophobic and misogynistic people on BGG. But I find your rhetoric troubling because you've managed to take a situation where people were advocating for a LBGTQ+ forum where they could form a community space and you're portraying it as a situation where BGG gave in to anti-SJW's by making the Rainbow BGG forum... or that creating that community space was "forced" rather than requested. Your statements seem disingenuous.

If you want to argue that there's an atmosphere on BGG that is hostile and unsupportive to the LBGTQ+ community, and that the call for a space of their own was a direct response to that atmosphere... that's one thing. But don't try to say that it was the Anti-SJW's who were asking for the forum. Or that having the forum is a bad thing. (I don't think many of the Rainbow BGG'ers would be happy if the forum were removed for example).

There's more than enough of an issue for you to rage and rail against without disparaging the Rainbow BGG'ers forum. You can argue for better moderation of anti-homophobic and misogynistic statements without trying to turn the existence of the Rainbow BGGers forum into a negative.
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Matthew M
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piman wrote:

That one contingent wanted us to have zero spaces to discuss these issues doesn't mean giving us only one space isn't also totally fucked up.


Rainbow BGGers is a forum where LGBTQ+ issues take the spotlight. LGBTQ+ issues are still welcome to be discussed anywhere else if you prefer to do so elsewhere.

Any contingent wanting you to have zero spaces will have to adapt or find somewhere else to discuss games.
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dthurston wrote:
Jorune wrote:
My understanding is that all community forums are held to the same standards which includes forum moderation based on violation of rules. No one forum is treated any differently than another.

I *believe* guilds are moderated differently, usually by the poster who creates it (unless things get really out of hand). So perhaps that would be a better avenue? To create a Guild?
I think the solution is to have better site moderation.


Well, what I *suspect* will happen is what we are seeing in the RSP forum (Religion, Sex and Politics). That forum has gone under moderation because BGG has taken the stance that ultimately, this site is about boardgames and offensive postings are not welcome.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1741989/moderation-rsp

On a separate note, I understand that seeing a thread moderated without warning may cause an instant emotional response, but it may be better to discuss it with Octavian instead of just cursing at him. The moderators on BGG, as far as I have seen, try their best to make everyone feel welcome by moderating behaviour that starts to cross a line. This may include locking a thread before it goes too far, which may lead others to believe it's just censorship. It's not. It's frustrating when they do it because you lose the ability to defend your position, but let's discuss and not start calling the mods out. They aren't the enemy here.
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Vanessa Lopez
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Octavian wrote:
ScoobyG wrote:

Yes. That was the whole point of creating that community in the first place. That we don't have to have those discussions all over again, every single time. There's a reason I started the thread there, as opposed to the cthulhu wars thread itself.


And it was a good thread too. I'd been following it since your first post. I wasn't happy to come online this morning to see how things developed.

I would not have locked the thread if I thought there was a chance of it continuing to be a worthwhile discussion, but the crosslink from the locked Cthulhu Wars thread pretty much doomed that possibility.

The original topic is still worthwhile. I'd support seeing a new thread started to continue the discussion.


You know this this isn't the standard method of moderating, right? You've locked the entire conversation, forcing our community to start over. Instead of dealing directly with the individuals that created a problem (outsiders to our rainbow community), you've locked it down completely. Effectively silencing us. That makes zero sense.

I'm sincerely disappointed. In you specifically, Octavian. We worked together to create this space. And we fought for this space so that this exact thing would stop happening. Yet here we are again, and the bigots continue to run the show.

One step forward, two steps back. shake
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Octavian wrote:
LGTBQ+ issues are still welcome to be discussed anywhere else if you prefer to do so elsewhere.

But they're not. They get drowned out by dog whistles and ignorance with just enough explicit hate to make it clear we're not welcome, and then you refuse to do anything about the former. And when you do do anything, it's always just "lock the thread, temp ban accounts" - nothing lasting, nothing structural, always equivocating, and nothing to take an actual stance that makes us welcome.
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Thunkd wrote:
There's more than enough of an issue for you to rage and rail against without disparaging the Rainbow BGG'ers forum.

I'm so glad we've got all these people who show up when the RBGG forum is under attack... as long as it's "attacked" by its own members.
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piman wrote:
Octavian wrote:
LGTBQ+ issues are still welcome to be discussed anywhere else if you prefer to do so elsewhere.

But they're not. They get drowned out by dog whistles and ignorance with just enough explicit hate to make it clear we're not welcome, and then you refuse to do anything about the former. And when you do do anything, it's always just "lock the thread, temp ban accounts" - nothing lasting, nothing structural, always equivocating, and nothing to take an actual stance that makes us welcome.



Ahhhh...see now this makes a lot of sense.

BGG moderates all forums the same way, locking threads that go off the rails. It doesn't make sense to than create a new thread about the same topic, because those that caused the locking will just return.

Perhaps a discussion on different ways to moderate threads is warranted since it seems a one-size-fits-all solution isn't efficient.

Jorune
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Jorune wrote:
Perhaps...

Perhaps someone who just popped their head into this concern for the first time and tries to explain from first principles how BGG's moderation works, doesn't really have anything useful to add.

Perhaps whether BGG's moderation policy "fits" has nothing to do with the threads themselves, and everything to do with how much your demographic is affected by shutting down any discussion perceived as "political" or "unacceptable."
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C Bazler
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This is very similar to what happened in W&G for years: a woman would start a thread about experiencing sexism, men from the general site (who ignored W&G otherwise) would come in to tell all the women that they were oversensitive and wrong, that there was no sexism in gaming, or even that the mistreated OP was somehow at fault (because you know, "bitches be crazy"). The thread would inevitably get locked (or worse, moved to RSP), and the assholes effectively won by shutting the thread down.

There's got to be a better way of handling this. Moderators need to be much more vigorous about people who come into minority-oriented forums with lines like:

Quote:
I choose not to take offense over such things


This line of argument is a red flag, especially in a forum like Rainbow BGGers. It is a statement that comes from a position of privilege, and is designed to invalidate experiences of bigotry by shifting the blame onto the person affected by bigotry, not the bigot himself.
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mamapapillon wrote:
Octavian wrote:


The original topic is still worthwhile. I'd support seeing a new thread started to continue the discussion.


You know this this isn't the standard method of moderating, right?


It is standard on BGG. There have been many threads locked and invited to start over in response to a disruption that the original thread was not likely to bounce back from.

Quote:
Instead of dealing directly with the individuals that created a problem (outsiders to our rainbow community), you've locked it down completely.


It's not an either/or. Individual offenders were dealt with directly. However the crosslinks make it inevitable that new outsiders would join in given that the Cthulhu Wars thread had been locked.

Quote:
Effectively silencing us.


I understand how it can seem that way, which is why I have explicitly invited that the topic be re-opened in a new thread.

Quote:
and the bigots continue to run the show.


I am sure it is little comfort, but based on the response I have received from at least some Cthulhu Wars fans feel it is the "SJWs" running the show by getting their thread locked.

There are important discussions to be had and there are important fights to be fought. On BGG we welcome the discussions, however this is not the place for engaging in fights. I am going to continue to lock things down where I see fights are imminent so we can get back to focusing on the discussions.
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Charles Boyung
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piman wrote:
Jorune wrote:
Perhaps...

Perhaps someone who just popped their head into this concern for the first time and tries to explain from first principles how BGG's moderation works, doesn't really have anything useful to add.

Perhaps whether BGG's moderation policy "fits" has nothing to do with the threads themselves, and everything to do with how much your demographic is affected by shutting down any discussion perceived as "political" or "unacceptable."


I'm not sure which "someone" you are referring to, but Jorune sure appears to be 100% on your side and jumping down his throat is probably not the best course of action.
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Quote:

Quote:
Effectively silencing us.


I understand how it can seem that way, which is why I have explicitly invited that the topic be re-opened in a new thread.


It's not "seem that way". It's not even "effectively silencing". You unilaterally stopped the discussion in that thread. That's literally silencing people. You shut us up. Stop lying through obfuscation.

Quote:
There are important discussions to be had and there are important fights to be fought. On BGG we welcome the discussions, however this is not the place for engaging in fights. I am going to continue to lock things down where I see fights are imminent so we can get back to focusing on the discussions.


I'm so glad you welcome discussions about misogyny as long as they're not about misogyny.
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piman wrote:
Jorune wrote:
Perhaps...

Perhaps someone who just popped their head into this concern for the first time and tries to explain from first principles how BGG's moderation works, doesn't really have anything useful to add.

No, it's not my first time seeing BGG moderation in action. The locked thread in discussion is not the first thread to have been locked on this site. With the link I posted I think I have added something useful, but that's okay that you feel otherwise.

piman wrote:

Perhaps whether BGG's moderation policy "fits" has nothing to do with the threads themselves, and everything to do with how much your demographic is affected by shutting down any discussion perceived as "political" or "unacceptable."


I don't think you know my demographic. I may not actively participate in certain forums/guilds, but that doesn't mean I am part of one demographic and not another.

Jorune

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Pete
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I have seen threads locked because community A in thread A crossed over to fight with community B in thread B and vice versa before.

Pete (doesn't think this unique)
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motoyugota wrote:
I'm not sure which "someone" you are referring to, but Jorune sure appears to be 100% on your side

This is 100% gaslighting.
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plezercruz wrote:
I have seen threads locked because community A in thread A crossed over to fight with community B in thread B and vice versa before.

Pete (doesn't think this unique)


It's not unique. The question is whether it's an appropriate style of moderation for all circumstances.

The goal (a goal?) of the Rainbow forum was to have a place where we could discuss topics without as much demand for repeating certain basic conversations over and over again from scratch.

So when the neutral application of BGG's moderation policy amounts to "we fixed that bad thread for you! all you have to do is have your conversation over again from scratch!" it makes one thing, well, that policy is a bad fit for this situation.
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Octavian wrote:
mamapapillon wrote:
Octavian wrote:


The original topic is still worthwhile. I'd support seeing a new thread started to continue the discussion.


You know this this isn't the standard method of moderating, right?


It is standard on BGG.


Yeah, that's exactly the problem.

You do realize the extent to which BGG is viewed as a toxic pit of racism and sexism by much of the broader gaming community, right? You know that the reason there's not been a right-wing spinoff as there have been for so many other hobbyist sites is that BGG is its own right-wing spinoff?

That's all on you and your idiosyncratic "moderation." And you still show no interest in fixing it, nor even real awareness that this is the state of things.
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