Ken Moore
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We were playing SoS, FF7, Wounded Tiger.

The Tiger damaged the gun on a T-34 so the T-34 rammed another tank.

If the gun on a tank has been damaged so that it cannot fire, can the tank ram another tank?

Do the close combat rules cover this situation ?

Is there a good house rule for this situation ?
 
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Dan Carey
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I've never had that happen. The rules don't discuss ramming. I'd say no, the tank cannot ram another tank if the main gun is knocked out. It can only attack infantry, trucks, etc., with the machine guns.
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
If the gun on a tank has been damaged so that it cannot fire, can the tank ram another tank?


No

Quote:
Do the close combat rules cover this situation ?


No - The rules in COH wisely avoid adding rules for such super-rare occurences. The design philosophy is to scrap rules that are used in less than 5% of the games (IIRC)


Quote:
Is there a good house rule for this situation ?


Allow the tank to attack in close combat with a firepower of 0... Perhaps add the +4 CC modifier to make it less hopeless.
In reality it would be an act of utter desperation.
A bit like a unarmed man attacking a man with a submachine gun. He can win, but its not likely
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Confusion Under Fire
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brian asklev aursen wrote:


Allow the tank to attack in close combat with a firepower of 0... Perhaps add the +4 CC modifier to make it less hopeless.


Also don't forget that the T34 moving into CC could not fire in the same action that it moved. It would be a sitting duck for the attacking Tiger Tank, requiring only one hit to kill the wounded tank.
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Capt. Winters
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Another situation quite similar is when a tank has a damaged gun and meet an enemy foot unit. It definitely should be able, like the Truck, to ram into them in a last CC attack. The Truck has -2 and my suggestion is that a Tank unit should have got 0 (+4 in CC. The reason is that it is far more dangerous for the foot unitas it can drive not only on roads. This has not been covered in the rules, I believe.
 
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Chris Stimpson
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Don't forget that the depicted units, unlike the counters, don't take up the whole space in the hex. Tank A would be some distance from tank B in the real case.
 
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Capt. Winters
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But that is the same with Trucks vs units as well. Since the trucks are able to take out units, so should the tanks do - even easier imo. I think this one has slipped under the rule radar.
 
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Ben Bosmans
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strategigeniet wrote:
But that is the same with Trucks vs units as well. Since the trucks are able to take out units, so should the tanks do - even easier imo. I think this one has slipped under the rule radar.


In my opinion that is something completely different.

A tank ramming another well armoured tank at 25 mph ... does not make really sense in that steel ramming steel will not make much difference.

From the latest IS attacks in ... real life ... we now know that a truck driven at 40mph can make real havoc among people...

Only when that infantry is well sheltered and protected the trucks effectiveness will be very small.

So I think the absence of tanks vs tanks ramming is logical ... and as the rules clearly state tanks can always attack infantry targets with its red attack value (machine guns etc...).

The CoH system with its solo spend system is simply such a great SMART design, it results in smooth game play which includes just the right specific stuff without cluttering things up.

Is there a difference between a PzIVf1 and a PzIVf2. Yes, but is it acually functional to have a distinction on THIS scale? Nope.

Like someone said, by cutting 5-10% off these trivial issues, they came up with a well integrated inf/mechanised/aie combat system with hidden movement, night rules, smoke, that you would need 64-128 supplementary rules for in other games.

Let alone be playable. In the end it all comes down to: did we hit the target or not and if so what damage did it do. That's the core really.
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Capt. Winters
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Ben_Bos wrote:
strategigeniet wrote:
But that is the same with Trucks vs units as well. Since the trucks are able to take out units, so should the tanks do - even easier imo. I think this one has slipped under the rule radar.


In my opinion that is something completely different.

A tank ramming another well armoured tank at 25 mph ... does not make really sense in that steel ramming steel will not make much difference.

From the latest IS attacks in ... real life ... we now know that a truck driven at 40mph can make real havoc among people...

Only when that infantry is well sheltered and protected the trucks effectiveness will be very small.

So I think the absence of tanks vs tanks ramming is logical ... and as the rules clearly state tanks can always attack infantry targets with its red attack value (machine guns etc...).

The CoH system with its solo spend system is simply such a great SMART design, it results in smooth game play which includes just the right specific stuff without cluttering things up.

Is there a difference between a PzIVf1 and a PzIVf2. Yes, but is it acually functional to have a distinction on THIS scale? Nope.

Like someone said, by cutting 5-10% off these trivial issues, they came up with a well integrated inf/mechanised/aie combat system with hidden movement, night rules, smoke, that you would need 64-128 supplementary rules for in other games.

Let alone be playable. In the end it all comes down to: did we hit the target or not and if so what damage did it do. That's the core really.


You misunderstood what I wrote. In the earlier post I refer to tanks with damaged gun attacking foot units. I agree what you write about tanks vs tanks, but that was not the issue.

If a a Truck can damage a fooot unit, even more should a tank do. It's just common sense but it's not covered in the rules.

It gives me the creeps to acctually talk about these things, in the terror struck world we live in. War itself is horror.
 
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Lewis Karl
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Quote:
You misunderstood what I wrote. In the earlier post I refer to tanks with damaged gun attacking foot units. I agree what you write about tanks vs tanks, but that was not the issue.

If a a Truck can damage a fooot unit, even more should a tank do. It's just common sense but it's not covered in the rules.


I'm not sure what you are getting at here, but I think you have it all wrong. The game does not model vehicles running over infantry and it shouldn't for the reasons Ben gave.

If the tank's main gun is damaged, the secondary gun (red FP) could still fire on soft targets. (I can't remember if the vehicle damage chits include ones that only damage one or the other gun). If both guns are out, the tank crew are hardly ever going to run around trying to crush infantry under their tracks. They are going to retreat or abandon the tank.

As for the Truck...sure an undamaged truck should be able to inflict some damage versus a completely damaged tank (with crew appropriately panicked about it). The game is not modeling the Truck running over infantry; its modeling the infantry on the truck fighting with rifles and small arms with low fire power.
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Capt. Winters
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Well, no big deal but I'm just refering to a situation that occured in one game. I am not saying the game is trying to model tank ramming foot units, but sometimes situations occur that makes them debatable.

The Hit marker was Gun Damaged (not Panicked) with red forbidden cirkle, and the tank was heading for cover. Then he met an enemy unit which was spent. In this situation I feel the tank could try to attack. But you could also accept it like it is, imagining they are scared and just wants to get away.
 
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Matthew Thomas
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If it's a red circle then you can still make Hard attacks. So ramming another tank would be pointless. A black circle would mean both guns damaged and a blue circle means you can only attack soft targets.
 
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Capt. Winters
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The Hit marker was Gun Damaged (not Panicked) with red forbidden cirkle, and the tank was heading for cover. Then he met an enemy FOOT unit which was spent. In this situation I feel the tank could try to attack THE FOOT UNIT (yes, the headline says something else but I brought this up since it's a ramming situation).

But you could also accept it like it is, imagining they are scared and just wants to get away.
 
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Doug Click
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strategigeniet wrote:
The Hit marker was Gun Damaged (not Panicked) with red forbidden cirkle, and the tank was heading for cover. Then he met an enemy FOOT unit which was spent. In this situation I feel the tank could try to attack THE FOOT UNIT (yes, the headline says something else but I brought this up since it's a ramming situation).

But you could also accept it like it is, imagining they are scared and just wants to get away.


Well, it was a tactic used at Kursk


Monument Museum rokhorovka

But, there are no rules for it.

Since a unit may move through hexes occupied by friendly or enemy units there is plenty of space within the hex to keep from accidently having an accident or running over foot units as a tank passes through. Personally, because of that, I would say it can't be done.

However, you can make up your own rules if you want to.


Make up some... Must be close combat with no Close Combat Bonus (since the guns don't work the unit shouldn't get the +4 attack bonus since it has to run up and touch whatever it is attacking) and pay the attack AP as well as a Move AP (since they are not just shooting, but trying to maneuver into the opponent). The tank doing the ramming automatically receives Immobilized status on successful ramming attack or if it misses by more than four. The rammed tank or foot unit receives hit marker as normal.
 
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Lewis Karl
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Stories of tanks ramming tanks at Kursk are supposedly myths/propaganda. Random search uncovered this link (not sure how reliable): https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/118029-the-bat...
 
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Ken Moore
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I finally found something related to my question in the 2nd Edition Rule book for Awakening the Bear.
Rule 16.0 Trucks and Wagons: "Trucks have a -2/-2AR and a range of 0, so they may attempt feeble CC attacks."
Designer's Note: A truck may get lucky crashing into an armored car or squad of men.

If a truck w/o a gun can damage an armored car, it seems that a tank with a damaged gun could damage another tank by crashing into it.
 
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Lewis Karl
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Yes, and a trucks ramming ability is built into its attack rating (-2) just as its built into a tanks attack rating.
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Doug Click
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Zakopious wrote:
I finally found something related to my question in the 2nd Edition Rule book for Awakening the Bear.
Rule 16.0 Trucks and Wagons: "Trucks have a -2/-2AR and a range of 0, so they may attempt feeble CC attacks."
Designer's Note: A truck may get lucky crashing into an armored car or squad of men.

If a truck w/o a gun can damage an armored car, it seems that a tank with a damaged gun could damage another tank by crashing into it.


Great find. I would use the same rule for tanks without the use of their guns.
 
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